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You're listening to the ground transportation podcast with Ken Lucci of driving transactions and James Blaine of PAX training. Learn how you can build a thriving transportation business with real profits, repeat clients, and enterprise value. And now for your hosts, Ken and James.

Ken Lucci: 0:30

Welcome to another exciting edition of the Ground Transportation Operator Podcast. I'm Ken Lucci from Driving Transactions with my good friend James Blain from PAX Training. Say

James Blain: 0:41

Hey there, everybody.

Ken Lucci: 0:42

And we are blessed truly today to have Susan Lichtenstein with us from HQ Travel. And um, we first have to set up how James and I met her. The two of us were down at the Florida Limousine Association conference this summer. A great crowd put on and, and I was on stage with Susan, never met her before, and she was to my right. She went on before me. Totally wowed the crowd.

James Blain: 1:14

Amazing. Amazing.

Ken Lucci: 1:16

Wait a minute, wait a minute, combination, combination of unbelievably granular detail on where corporate travel is going, but with a combination of the stand up comedian timing. That's all I'll say.

James Blain: 1:30

Just pure energy. Just pure energy.

Ken Lucci: 1:33

right, so Is she, you know, she, to me, she's one of these people where, and I was whispering in her ear after she sat down, you killed it, but you made it so difficult for me because my shit is boring. But when I, when I met her, I literally said, I just, she's one of these people that you just click with when you meet her. So we are so happy to have you here today. And, uh, first we want you to tell us all about your history and what brought you into corporate travel. And then give us an idea about what you do at HQ, and what HQ is all about, and then maybe we'll have some time to ask you some questions. How's that sound?

Susan Lichenstein: 2:12

Great.

Ken Lucci: 2:13

Good.

Susan Lichenstein: 2:14

Well, thanks for having me. And that's quite a build up, a little pressure there. Everybody was great. Um, you know, I just think that we're in a really Uh, interesting phase in corporate travel right now, business travel, travel in general is an interesting phase, but certainly business travel is making a quick turn, you know, new generations, new technology, and now the good old A. I. stepped in to say, uh, you know, get your act together or do something else. Right? So, and, uh, and I think it's just a great and exciting time to be part of this. You know, I'm fortunate. I've had a long career business travel. And to be able to kind of finish my career, you know, I'm certainly at the end of my next five years will be the wrap up of my career in this business. And, um, and I, and I'm just excited that I get to see it make the shift and to be a part of that. Right. Because for so long, we've been doing the same thing over and over and over again. So I'm really excited about that. Um, so I got into corporate travel or business travel, um, really by accident. I wasn't in the business. Um, I didn't, I traveled a lot for my job. I was a young, I know, shocking, energetic, um, uh, broker, so to speak, like I had a couple licenses to trade and I traded for Chase Manhattan Bank for a while, uh, down on Wall Street for a while, and then, uh, and then I moved, um, and a friend of mine told me about a company called Prodigy, and, um, I don't know if that's a company from a long time ago, uh, that was kind of the first exciting thing. Uh, before the others, actually. Very exciting technology, uh, that was way before its time. Just, nobody understood it. It was the Google of the day.

James Blain: 3:58

did it do?

Susan Lichenstein: 3:59

Prodigy was the first email ever to come out. It wasn't AOL. It was Prodigy.

Ken Lucci: 4:06

You have to forgive him, he's young. I remember Prodigy.

James Blain: 4:09

No, no, I'm asking for the benefit of the listener. I still remember dial up, thankfully.

Susan Lichenstein: 4:14

So, so they actually, uh, were building something called, uh, book a trip. I didn't know what it was. I didn't care what it was. I was a finance girl. Um, and so, um, a friend of mine said, you really liked the technology of wall street. I was really into the new technology. Come look at this. You're moving out to this area. I moved out to Westchester. Come look at this. So I went to look at it. I loved it. And it was being, it was partnering with a company called Rosenbluth, which was a huge TMC at the time, like the size of AmEx almost. And, um, and they got together and they built this tool and it was fantastic. It was unbelievable. It was too good. Nobody knew what to do with it. Nobody knew how to use it. Barely anybody even went to email. I mean, it was just like, just really taking off. so, did that for a while, but I was hooked. Once you fall into this business, it's really hard to get yourself out of it. And I was really hooked on the, the variety of the business. I wasn't so much hooked on like just, you know, get somebody somewhere, but I was hooked on how are we going to do that? How are we going to do it when it goes from thousands and transactions to millions of transactions to billions of transactions? How would they get through that? Yeah. So I was just hooked, right? On the data side of it. I love data. I love measuring things. I love building things. So. That's how I got in the business. And then from there, I just kept going, right? I did a startup, um, I did, standard jobs, I, then I ended up at, uh, Cisco called me up and asked, Cisco Systems, and asked me to, uh, come manage their travel program for them, again, didn't know what I was doing for that, but, uh, sounded intriguing, um, so I spent about 12 years doing that, and, uh, Came out of my own business and then got recruited by HQ here. Another great startup. And I was like, Oh, love those. Let's go. So here I am. So now I know more about ground transportation than I could tell you. I would ever dream of knowing in my entire lifetime. So here we are.

James Blain: 6:14

have you always been on that side of ground transportation? Always on the side of vetting and trying to get, you know, the connections there?

Susan Lichenstein: 6:22

No, so no. So I was a buyer for many years. So I would buy ground transportation from my company, you know, the standard way just by suppliers, different cities, different places. Well, somebody in my team would. Um, our program was enormous, um, so I've been, I've spent time on both sides, the supplier side, the buyer side, the consulting side, the technology side, and here I am, here I am today. So when the HQ came a knockin I said no, at first, no, why would I do that? I have my own business, it's going pretty well, and they showed me the technology. So, again, for me it was how we're doing it, what they're doing. And it was the first true open platform I saw, it's not a, it's not a GDS, it's not a booking tool, it's a true global platform. Which means there's no syncing needed, nothing needed, right, you can build anything you want in a platform, anything. Like we have automated reconciliation, you can do whatever you want in a platform. And a true global platform, that's not easy to build. And those engineers for two years just got together from two different companies and just killed it. Like the technology we have inside and I thought to myself, boy if we can do this for ground and get it right because it's such a diverse business. There's so many different supplies, there's so many different types, there's so many different everything in the ground world from China to us all the way around the world. If we could get that right in an open platform, you could do anything with that open platform. So you

Ken Lucci: 7:47

you've got, you've got some large Fortune 50 companies using you.

Susan Lichenstein: 7:53

We do. We do. Yeah.

Ken Lucci: 7:55

So, you know, and from what I've heard, they love it.

Susan Lichenstein: 7:59

Yeah, it's just a, it's just the way travel's moving. I mean, think about air travel, right? And I think that's where ground is always separating themselves, right? We're ground, like when I first came in, I'm like, even me, as, as the leader of one of the biggest programs for a long time, if somebody came to me and said, okay, I, you need to go work on ground, I'd be like, no, I'm going to give it to my team, my team's going to work on it, they'll come back to me with the solution, we'll agree on it, and I'll move on. Like, that's the way it is, right? That is cool. It's, at the time, was less than 5 percent of our spend, and then who woke up the ground world? Uber. Uber woke up the ground world. Because, and Uber came in and disrupted it, and I'm like, disrupted what? Like, I, like, all of us were like, what did they disrupt? Like, what do you mean? The taxi business? Like, did they disrupt the taxi business? And they did, obviously. But they disrupted the, the executive car business. They disrupted everything. And that,

James Blain: 8:55

changed the game.

Susan Lichenstein: 8:55

that started making my heart beat. I was like, Ooh, I love

Ken Lucci: 8:59

And listen, it woke up the chauffeured space. And let's just clarify, I mean, before Uber, less than, about 13 percent of Americans ever used a chauffeured transportation service above and beyond a wedding. And I think the statistic

Susan Lichenstein: 9:15

you weren't allowed, you know, companies, companies said you drive your own car or you take a cab.

Ken Lucci: 9:20

So it was 13%. It was usually sea level, uh, entertainment, sea level. So it was a total of 13 percent of America would use it. The thing that gets me is today, 43 percent of Americans, uh, 68 percent have downloaded one or two, one or the other TNC. But, but something like 43 percent use it. TNC at least two or three times a month. So You're right. What did they wake up? They woke up a niche industry, right?

James Blain: 9:54

Oh, yeah.

Ken Lucci: 9:55

they

Susan Lichenstein: 9:55

mean, it started out as less than 5 percent of travel spend, maybe like a fractional amount, which is why I never made it up to the, you know, the level of meeting a procurement person. And now it's anywhere from 5 to 11 percent, depending on the company, right? And it exists, it's not just RideHail, it's RideHail, it's BlackHat, it's Electric, it's Regulars, it's Diversity, it's JetCars, it's Buses, it's Coaches, it's Vans. That's 90 percent of the company now, right? I used to drive my car all the time to the airport, when I go to Miami, all the time. I live near Palm Beach Airport, I take my car, honestly. But if I'm going someplace else, I, I would drive. Because I like have my car. I don't do that anymore. I don't have to anymore. It's so easy. Like I just go outside, push the button and go. Like it's so easy.

James Blain: 10:40

To your point about technology. It was a revolution in accessibility, right? You know, I remember calling a cab, wait for the cab to show up, try to tell the guy where you are, try to do this. I mean, it was a pain. It was a royal pain. And being able to put that in your pocket and be able to say, we already know where you are. We already know who's by you. Two clicks. We're going to send somebody. Yeah. And oh, by the way, it's low cost. I mean, that was

Ken Lucci: 11:04

Oh And by the way, you're gonna be able to watch the vehicle come to you. So there's no more press three to find my car okay,

Susan Lichenstein: 11:11

Right. And now you take that up another step like we did, right? Which is, by the way, I'm not only going to watch you, I'm going to track you for safety and security purposes. I'm going to measure your carbon emission. I'm going to measure to make sure you got the right price that you were told you were going to get. I'm going to make sure that your profile is there and I'm going to make sure you don't need to worry about an expense report. That's where it's going. Right? And if you think about that, the only thing in travel that worked within the past was air. Because even hotels, people booked their hotels on their own. You only had a 50 50 percent adoption in your company. All that was happening. Well, not anymore. Now you've got travel management is moving into travel as a service. What that basically means is James was just a cog in my program. Hey, James, here's come work for me in my company. I'm the travel leader. Here's your policy. Here's the way you do it. Sign in. Here's your credit card and go. Don't break the rules. Boom, boom, boom. And I'll help you with that. Today is hi, James. Hmm. Let me see James. James is this age. James has a social responsibility in his life. He likes being helpful. He might want sustainable options. He might want to participate in, like, a lobby with other gamers instead of a fancy room at the Hyatt. Like, I have to know all that as a travel leader today through technology of how James behaves. James wants to book his trip directly. James wants to have his American Airlines app. James wants to have the freedom of doing what James wants to do. But I still have to make sure James doesn't spend too much money, because that's still number one, including on his ground transportation. And ground transportation still has this gap, which we're trying to fill. But even when sitting in that meeting, I realized that there's still, here's the rest of the world moving from travel management to travel as a service. And ground transportation is still here because of their swim lanes. And I'll tell you what the swim lane is. The swim lane is you take a supplier on your, in the ground transportation world and they work in New York or Florida or California, pick a place. And they pick up people in those areas and they have the cars and the drivers and life is good. But then if they want to go across the country or go to London or whatever, they got to go talk to somebody else. And then they got to put a markup on that fare. And then they got to trust the other guy who's doing a good job. And then they got to make sure that guy gets it done. And probably he won't get it done. And now the customer's paying 45 percent more than they should have paid, right? Instead of being able to just book where you need to book, when you need to book it, all through the same technology, all through the same place. So instead of expanding their business through technology, They're holding on lock, key, and file into the box. And that's gonna kill them.

Ken Lucci: 13:46

Susan, they're not even just holding on to it. Their knuckles, bare knuckles onto it. Okay, white knuckle and they and they will come kicking and screaming to the party, but they don't realize something from where I sit. The entire reason why the value of ground transportation businesses are Two to three times EBITDA is because so much of our transaction is manually tracked, manually processed. And, and so to your point, I believe the technology piece of our industry and as well as the mindset holds us back. And it is hurting people from an enterprise value perspective. But what's the other reason besides the Uber transformation or waking people up? What is necessitating? The change in corporate travel as a service. What's the big thing?

Susan Lichenstein: 14:45

Yeah, so The big thing is James, right? We're in for, yeah,

James Blain: 14:49

I'm doing everything

Susan Lichenstein: 14:50

Millennials, the Generation Zs, they're different, right? So, listen, we've got the first time ever in history, ever in the history of our country, like we're tracking, the history of the world, that we have four generations. Four generations. So that means you can't put a policy out anymore that's based on savings. You as the leader have to give the offerings for the best prices and where they're going to get them. So wherever you're going to get them, whether it's direct or not direct, whatever. I need the data. That's all I need as a leader. Give me my data. Give me my data. I'll figure out the problems, right? You need the experience. How do I put those two things together? Well, I gotta get you out of the box. I gotta get me out of the box. I gotta get the supplier out of the box and say, Hey! Let's go someplace like, think about Amazon, Marketplace. Let's go to our favorite Marketplace, our favorite platform, and figure out where I can offer that traveler James everything he needs with the touch of a button, including the option to book direct if he wants to, so that I can get all that data back from my platform at one place, and I can take all that data and measure what I need to measure, which will help me negotiate, Create better, safety and security, create better services. Now, if I took a hundred of the suppliers of the world, and, and suppliers are catching on. I look at Addison Lee, they're catching on. They're not negotiating anymore. They're joining platforms that will give them that global coverage, right? By the way, you say they don't want to go invest in technology, they don't have to. The technology's already there, you just have to plug in. I, my favorite expression is, plug and play. Right? Because you said kicking and screaming, they go into the party. You're supposed to kick and scream when you have to leave the party, not go to the party. To the party, you're supposed to drive as quickly as possible and have a good time. Leaving the party, you're supposed to kick and scream. So, so the party's happening. All you have to do is plug and play. Think of it as a video game. Plug, put your headset on and have a good time, right? So, that's not an excuse anymore. It was an excuse when there wasn't a technology, right? I mean, hotels have the same problem. They're all franchises, no maxing technology. It's all going to be solved for. But think about these suppliers. Here's your swim. Why are you in a swim lane when you can be in an ocean? Literally be in an ocean. Why? Why are you doing that? You have to sit down with your own teams and say, Why Are we making enough money? Do I never want to make more money than I'm making now? Okay! Okay! There are some people that are! And I'm okay with that, right? So, whatever makes you happy. But if you're a company that wants to grow, you gotta get into the party, so to speak.

Ken Lucci: 17:16

and, and, if it's not the millennial that does everything on this, and the Gen Z er, Gen

Susan Lichenstein: 17:24

Gen Z was born, it was in the womb with the Gen Z. Like, they come out holding a baby cell phone. A baby cell

Ken Lucci: 17:31

they do everything, everything on this, including finding their life's partner. And so, so the road warrior, right?

Susan Lichenstein: 17:40

far from my hand. Ever. Far from my hand.

Ken Lucci: 17:43

road warrior is the millennial and Gen Z that uses this and they want convenience. They want tracking. They want to go the way they want to go when they want to go, and they want to use this doing it. But honestly, tell me also about The Corporate Travel Manager is also become, they're also the Millennials, the Gen Z's.

James Blain: 18:05

And I would take it further. They expect it.

Susan Lichenstein: 18:08

So let's

James Blain: 18:08

They don't want it. They expect it. It is not a

Susan Lichenstein: 18:11

about the box. So the Corporate Travel Manager today, or the Corporate Travel Leaders I like to call them, because who knows who they are, but the Corporate Travel Leader in a company today, they know that they can have an air differential. They know that. They know they can have a new platform. They know that. They can save money, measure carbon, all that stuff, right? They have those options today. They know the same thing with hotels, right? They don't need to RFP anymore. They know how to pick it. They know the right way to build a profile. They know about solving identity. A lot of them are going into blockchain. I mean, they're well advanced in the area of air and hotel. So now when ground comes up, That's a whole ballgame now, right? Cause it's accessible because they know about it. So it's one person stood on a stage recently and said it was 11%. I have 11%. I got to get that custom. So 11%, that's a lot. So 11 percent of their, of their travel budget, right? It's typically about five to seven, right? Percent, which is a lot of money. Right. So, but that five to percent was more like it was when I used to be doing it back then going, Oh, okay. I got other things to fry. Now it's becoming a priority. Right. Now they're looking for additional ways to, two big things we can do. Save money. Always save money. So that more companies that come together in one platform, the less money we have to spend. And two, measure those carbon emissions. Because ground transportation is the only thing in scope 3 emissions that you can action. Listen to what I'm saying. Ground transportation. GBTA said it from the big stage. Ground transportation is the only thing you can measure and action in your scope 3 emissions in a company.

James Blain: 19:48

What are scope three emissions? Help. For those that don't know what, what is, what

Susan Lichenstein: 19:53

there's all kinds of ways to measure carbon, right? But scope 3 admissions are the admissions of, uh, moving your people around, right? Think about facilities, travel, all that indirect spend around there. Logistics, right? That's scope 3. So, air is the number one. If you travel, travel, spend in a company is the second largest indirect spend. The first, staff. So, um, not me staff, not the direct staff, but the contingent labor. So that's first, right? Which is probably as much as it is regular labor. And the second is indirect spending. That's us. Anything in travel, right? Ground, air, whatever. Now, in our world, we're scope three. Okay? So scope three says air is number one in the transportation. I have no control over their air fuel I can ask my travelers to get on a plane that has, The oil, you know, the oil in it and pray, um, because we need to make it better. But yeah, it's happening. Airlines are starting to get more sustainable. SAF fuel will get, you know, hopefully less expensive and on and on and on. Right. But I can't control it. As a traffic leader,

Ken Lucci: 21:01

cannot affect it.

Susan Lichenstein: 21:02

you could display it, but I'm not pumping it. Right. So I can't control it. The second is ground and ground is so important because there are a lot of reasons. Your own car driving back to work. That's considered ground. Commuter buses, lots of those still going around. And that's considered ground. And then any taxi, Uber, Lyft, executive car, bus, van, coach, ground. If I'm measuring my ground in one platform, And I can see what they, I mean, we literally can show people what day of the week are you taking cars, what kind of cars are you taking, how many people did we pick up from the same airport, how many people came to the team meeting, we give that back to a story to somebody, let's say, and that travel leader can go back to that manager, that person and say, hey, you had ten guys come in for a team meeting and they all came in like within a half hour of each other, if we took one van we would have saved this much carbon emissions, and then give them back a report.

Ken Lucci: 21:50

And save money, and save, on and on and on and

Susan Lichenstein: 21:54

But let, but don't even do that. If you don't, even if you don't want to do that, if you took that report and handed it to what I call your going green team inside the company, team that's measuring this, which is so important, they would be your favorite stakeholder in the whole company. And now you have a stakeholder that will push your travel program. Here's the great circle. Now you have a stakeholder that says, Hey, we need to reduce our carbon emissions by this much. I'm getting these great scope three reports over here from my ground people. You better get your hotel in there, James, and use that platform. So I can see what you're doing. And James doesn't care. Cause he's like, yeah, no problem. I'll use the platform to book my car. It's like, it's only 5 percent he's traveling. You don't care. That's one. Two, the best experience and the worst experience is going to happen for James when he leaves his house and gets to the airport, how's that trip going to go? And when he gets off that plane and goes home, those are the two experiences that James is going to remember. If either one of those doesn't go, well, not great. Right? No matter how you took it. So to have somebody watching over you, that's a big deal to James, because he wants to have the best experience ever, right? So that's the part where I'm saying, I've got to know who James is. I've got to offer him what he wants, when he wants it, how he wants it, while James is secretly being guided to the best prices. You know, and doing the right thing. Because James absolutely wants to do the right thing for his company. So, that's what's happening now. So you can't do that in a box. You have to make the options available, the simplicity there, the one platform to click through, integrate with the other platforms, everybody connect with everybody, no big deal, we're an API integration machine. James puts up a mobile, everything he needs, it's pushed out to him, he's off and running. And by the way, if James decides that he likes the bicycle for two miles a day or around the block, I'm going to be able to provide that to James through those same applications, even though I'm a ground transportation platform. Look at Uber. Meals, packages, food. You know why? Because it's a captive audience. So this is the way of travel as a service is coming and everybody fits in as long as they get out of the box.

Ken Lucci: 24:01

Well, and, and to your point, I mean, we, we do a little bit of RFP work for some of the larger corporations and we see rental spend, Uber spend, chauffeured spend, and when I just started doing this in 2018, most of the travel people that I dealt with, travel leaders I dealt with were much older than me. Well, now they're all younger than me, right? So all we're doing is the financial pro forma work. And, you know, making some suggestions on the RFP, but these travel leaders are all from that group that wants the smartphone experience. They are absolutely DEI sensitive. They're 100 percent sensitive in reference to the environment. And

James Blain: 24:50

It's how they grew up.

Ken Lucci: 24:52

but I think we're left, I think potentially the chauffeur space and even the motor code space is left out until. We fully evolved the technology and understand that we have to be part of that technology, corporate travel

Susan Lichenstein: 25:08

All you have to do is plug into the technology that's there. I just want to say that over and over again, guys. They have technology inside their office, right? They have a booking system, they have a website, Everybody's having a good time. All they have to do is open up the API key, or get a company that can open it for them, and plug into something. I don't care what you plug into, but plug into something that makes you travel as a service.

James Blain: 25:30

So let's, let's dive into that a little more. Cause I know that's something you talk about and a lot of our industry, especially the operators, we've got a lot of older people in the industry. We've got a lot of people that aren't tech savvy. What does that, obviously, you know, grabbing the API key, plugging it in is, is easy to say, but what are they getting? How does that work? You know, can you kind of explain to us how that platform works, how they're going to interact with it and what it's going to do for them?

Susan Lichenstein: 25:56

Yeah, so, not just my platform, right? Just think of the world as a platform today, right? I mean, there's nobody that's not an open platform that's growing as a business today, right? First you have to have a strategy, right? So, I have talked to a lot of people since I went with you guys. And I'd love to have this conversation in Vegas one day. Like on a big stage, like really invite people up to ask these questions. But, if you think about, um, The strategy. A couple of people I met with, some had larger strategies and some had none. Like, they called me up, and one I went to lunch with and said, Well, I don't know what to do. I go, I don't know what to do because I don't know what you do for a living, right? So, like, maybe you should do something else. I don't know, right? So, um, but when you think about it, you have to make a determination. What do I want to be when I grow up? And a lot of people in the ground space, they want to be exactly what they are. They do. They want to be exactly what they are. So we can't force the issue for every supplier in the world, right? Some people are really, really, really thrilled with being a regional supplier. And if you're really, really thrilled being a regional supplier, then become an expert at that, right? Before you plug into a platform, get your strategy together and say, I'm going to be the goddamn best regional supplier in the area, and I'm going to fix up my world. To make sure that every regional opportunity that I have to plug and play into whatever they're doing to get me out to that regional world, I got my hands on. So that's what you gotta do. If you wanna be a global, so I'm not gonna book somebody in London. I'm not. Cause I don't care. Right? I wanna focus. I'm a family owned business. I'm not really interested in going wild.

Ken Lucci: 27:29

we cannot stop myopic thinking. We, if, if that's what they want to do, that's what they want to do. If that's what they're happy with.

Susan Lichenstein: 27:36

That's right.

Ken Lucci: 27:37

They were corner stores, and they were happy with it.

Susan Lichenstein: 27:40

Yeah.

Ken Lucci: 27:41

But I think the problem is, we've evolved from corner store to past grocery store. Now we're akin to huge big box, right? And now we're ordering online. So now it's not just

Susan Lichenstein: 27:56

That's right. You know why? Because the corner grocery store didn't have an itch. If you're going to stay regional, you better have an itch. You better be the best regional person in the world for me. You better have something that nobody else has for me globally, because I'm probably going to use that global company instead. Because I can use them to book in London. I can use them to book when I travel to California. If I have a platform at my fingertips, and it says, I work for a New York company, but hey, I'm part of a platform and I go, Hey, I'm going out to California. Great. I book it in New York. Great. Hey, Sue, I could take care of that for you in California. Let me take care of that for you. I could take care of it for you and go to your hotel dinner. I could take, thank you. Thank you very much from the, from the main point. That's what Addison Lee is doing, right? I could take care of it for you around the world now. So is it their cars? No, but they don't have to go look for partners. Great. Here's the platform, and then there's the partner, right? So, at the end of the day, again, any platform, so it could be a regional platform, and you're part of a bigger story for regional travel, because some corporations are mid sized and small, not going to join a big travel agency, right? So, but, that smaller travel agency better have something that's different than the other guy. Now, if you look at Spontanana, or you look at Black Sky, or you look at all those guys now, or Kayak, and Kayak, and all those cool things that are happening in the travel world for air and hotel. And now Ground, they're, they're going after every size company. They're like, yep, I'm going to treat that small mid sized business like they're the largest customer in the world, and I'm going to treat the largest customer in the world like they're the largest customer in the world. And everybody gets the same experience, or better, inside that world. Because if you build the platform right, the experience should be by, based on you, James, not based on this box that I live in.

Ken Lucci: 29:45

So let's talk about that. Let's talk about one thing

Susan Lichenstein: 29:48

think about everything else you do in your life. Think about Amazon, right? You go into Amazon and less than 0001 seconds later, I get out and go back in and it says, Hi Susan, welcome back. Everybody who bought these pair of jeans bought these shoes. Like this, that's where we have to go.

James Blain: 30:05

And it's data and convenience, right? And that's, that's the world that we're moving to. And my business partner was on the podcast a while back, Bruce Heinrich. And one of the things that he said was. You know, you have to, you have to make it convenient to do business with you. You have to make it easy to do business with

Ken Lucci: 30:21

Well, and, and you have to communicate with your customers the way they want to communicate with you. Not, not, I'm going to tell you, I'm going to tell you how I'm going to communicate. You have to call in, you have to do this, you know, it's WhatsApp. It's chat. It's it's the latest and greatest global app, et cetera, et cetera.

Susan Lichenstein: 30:41

you can't get back to me with a price. I want to see a price. And if I see a price, I want to pay that price. I don't want to pay something else, which we're all so

Ken Lucci: 30:47

Oh, by the way. And I don't want

Susan Lichenstein: 30:49

Uh,

Ken Lucci: 30:49

change. I want you. I don't want that price to change.

James Blain: 30:53

Oh yeah.

Susan Lichenstein: 30:55

No, if I see 100 on the platform, I'm going to pay 100 when it comes out. Not 427. So, you know, that's, you gotta

Ken Lucci: 31:03

so, so let's talk about, let's talk about the fleet owners for a second and let's talk about in five, five years, where do you see the chauffeured space as it sits today? Where do you see the category of the chauffeured space? The chauffeured experience?

Susan Lichenstein: 31:25

I think there's always, always, always, always, always, always going to be a need for VIP service. Let me say that again. Always. So, even in the worlds of Spud Manners, and Black Skies, and Amexes, You could have a 95 percent adoption on your tool, in a corporation, a business corporation. Include a grant. 95 percent adoption. That 5 percent that wants to call somebody and get it. Listen, he's traveling again. Listen, he's doing it again. Right? He's out. He's running around. She's running around again. Oh my god, the chief marketing officer needs to make three more stops. That's never gonna change. That VIP service has to be there. And that talent, that skill of those people is remarkable to me, right? So, but, that same person that's doing the booking is going to do it in the platform. They're not going to do it, they're not going to do it separately anymore. So here's the difference to what we do today. Today we pick up the phone and put it someplace else for the VIPs. Nope, that's going to change in five years. Every entry in transaction is going to be in some sort of platform, some sort of technology. Whether I pick up the phone and talk to you, whether you give me a 95 percent adoption, whether I talk, well, I don't think we'll be typing anymore, I think we'll go right back to speaking into the box like we used to. Yeah, Just yelling it, like we used to. Um, you know, go back into this, or maybe it'll even put a chip in my, my glasses. I don't know what's gonna happen, hopefully that, by then I'll be on a beach somewhere. But, that's why I live in Florida. But, when that happens It's all going to be happening in that place. There won't be two separate places for that input anymore, no matter how the service is so that later on, when I push that app and want to know what's happening, I know no matter how that data got to me, how that request came to me, it's all in the same

Ken Lucci: 33:11

Well, and you're and I'm able to check to your point. I'm able to check on update and track what's going on. I'm able to verify in that platform. So I think this is where we have an advantage because we are the ultimate bespoke right now. Everything we have to do is by phone and by manual dispatch. But to me, and we're used to the one off, you know, uh, The instructions, the whole thing. But I think the difference is we, if we have that global platform, the one stop for everything, we will have a better advantage than an Uber or Lyft where you can't even reach a human being.

James Blain: 33:52

Well, and it's,

Susan Lichenstein: 33:53

I'm grateful to Uber. They created this platform that works, right? So we're, you know, Amazon created the marketplace that works, right? Next up, Blocksky, those guys, NFTs, airlines are already creating NFTs. That's next, guys, right? We know it, it's gonna happen. If you own the payment, you're going to own the program. That's the end of the day. That's what's happening. Own the payment, own the program. And the only thing that matters there is, how do I get the information to James to make the right decisions? And that's going to be through a global platform.

James Blain: 34:24

Well, and I think something that's worth mentioning here, right. You know, obviously coming from, you know, customer service and safety training is the core of where I live. That also gives you an incredible opportunity to be able to go and deliver on that, right? Because, you know, I fall right in that age category. I want to do every, if I can't do it on my phone, I probably don't want to do it. But the downside of that is if I do something on my phone and it sucks, I have options at my, I can switch on the drop of a hat. But like all people, right? The one thing that's never going to change about human psychology is if something works and we're happy with it, We typically are going to keep running with it unless there's some motivator to get us to go above and beyond. And so one of the things for me that's always huge is you've got to make sure that if something does come through like that, that you knock it out of the park, that you a hundred percent nail it. And like, I love to say, you know, I can go get Uber black. They're going to send me the same Suburban that your local company is going to send me but what they're not going to do is they're not going to train the driver They're not going to worry about how I feel when I get in how I feel when I get out And so you've got to really take advantage when you get these trips and understand that Yes, the platform is going to be revolutionary. It's a huge change, but

Susan Lichenstein: 35:42

the experience that's going to make you stay.

James Blain: 35:45

Yes, yes

Susan Lichenstein: 35:46

And so that's why the platform has to allow for, hey, here's my VIP cars, here's my ride hail cars. You get to choose your experience, James. Here you are, pick and choose. You want the, I don't care what I sit on a spring or an outer on my butt, I don't care, I want to pay two dollars, choose it. I want to go a little more comfortable, choose it. I want to go super comfortable, choose it. And the Right. price, right time. And by the way, safety and security off the hook. On a platform you can track travelers, but more importantly, you can decide who comes in and out of it. So when you said, besides vetting people, vetting is critical. So that you can get out there and say, I'm sorry, you need to qualify to be on my platform. But once you do, and James says he wants that experience again, you've got yourself a customer for life.

James Blain: 36:31

Absolutely

Ken Lucci: 36:31

and, we are. As an industry, um, I think there's, I think we're at an inflection point where people don't really understand the ramifications, especially coming out of the pandemic. Uh, the black suburban that pulls up could be an Uber black versus a chauffeured service. Some of our chauffeured service companies, the service experience is here, Uber black and us where it, it absolutely needs to be. We need to hit it out of the park every single time. We need to.

Susan Lichenstein: 37:08

you have to have the right place, platform to start. Once you had that going, the service, James, you're right. You know, listen, when I go to a restaurant, I'm looking up the right stars. I am when I go to a hotel and looking up, why should that be different about my experience in a car? If I know James at work and he said, this was great, right guys. Right. And he gets to post that on a platform. I'm going to trust him. He's my buddy at work. I'm going to be like, okay, I'm going to do what James did. That's what's happening in corporations, right? So yeah, I never thought I'd buy 90 percent of what I own through a platform called Amazon. I never thought that would happen.

James Blain: 37:42

I don't even buy batteries, like I needed batteries the other day. I was like, I'm not

Susan Lichenstein: 37:45

I'm not going to go to Home

James Blain: 37:46

going to bring them to my house.

Susan Lichenstein: 37:48

That's right. For free.

James Blain: 37:50

But, but, but it brings up a good point in that, you know, kind of like you said earlier, different situations are going to call for different things, right? If I'm going on a business trip and I, Mike and Susan, you nailed it. The two most important things to me are getting home and getting there. Then when I'm there, right? If we're out to dinner, if we're out doing stuff in the evening, right? I'm out with clients. It's not like we know exactly what we're going to do, where we're going to go. If we end up, you know, in the gas lamp district in San Diego or, or somewhere like that. And so these different pieces. Fit that point. But to what you said, Ken, you have to understand, right? If you're if you're luxury transportation and I can call an uber black at the bar at 11 o'clock at night and the same vehicle shows up and the same guy shows up, that's completely different than I know that when I'm going with luxury transportation with Offred Car Service, that that experience is going to be up here. It's a completely

Susan Lichenstein: 38:54

I need to still be able to push the button and call them. That's the trick, right? So, If I go to the airport, I'm probably taking a ride here, because my boss is not going to say, Oh, yeah, yeah. Go ahead, Susie. Take the most expensive car. That's not happening, right? They're way too smart. Not happening. So, I take a ride here, right? Or whatever. That's the trick. But, if I'm going out with clients, to your point James, we meet up, you're a client of mine, I'm going to take you to dinner tonight, I'm going to show off a little

James Blain: 39:17

Yeah.

Susan Lichenstein: 39:18

right?

James Blain: 39:18

Yeah. You want that

Susan Lichenstein: 39:19

really, I say, hey look James, push the button, a nice pretty car comes from a nice great company, that I already know is vetted, I know we're safe, I know we're secure, I know we're going to be tracked, I know if we're in trouble we're going to get help, I'm putting James in that car.

Ken Lucci: 39:31

Well, the board, the board of directors meetings, the groups and meetings and conferences where nothing can go wrong. You know, that's where we live as an industry. But I think some operators in our industry are confused. that they think that all I have to do is be slightly better than the TNC? My answer is no, you don't, because not all of us are on the most convenient platform

Susan Lichenstein: 39:55

but guys, pay attention, Uber and Lyft are not that cheap anymore. If you want to pass their car, they're not that cheap. So you got ETG, Smarty in London, I'll use the London market. Those guys are competing with executive car service, like you're saying, with that service that you're talking about, James, high level service, with the Uber people are taking them instead. So you have to find a way to compete with that,

Ken Lucci: 40:18

Yes.

Susan Lichenstein: 40:18

through technology, and offer kind of, maybe not the top ride, but an equal kind of ride, to give that experience, so that people could say, what the hell was that, that was great. Right? So that, otherwise they're never moving away, and then you have to be able to provide that, like up here.

Ken Lucci: 40:33

where do you think the most, in corporate travel, where do you think the most, the most, um, Progressive city, the city that's got it, has got it going on as far as ground. Is it London?

Susan Lichenstein: 40:48

I think New York and London are the biggest markets, right? I'm seeing a lot of uptick in South America. Some uptick in Asia now, um, so I think you're going to see more of that growth as it becomes more global and the opportunities grow and the markets grow. It just wasn't there before, right? People, I've had the, uh, I've been fortunate to live in India for a little bit. So, you know, it's just different and you have to have a company that knows different, right? Knows when you need to drive and when you don't need to drive. What's the culture like? You can't just jump into that world. You have to either be with somebody already knows it. Or if you're going to try it on your own, it's dangerous. So that you really know the culture and the rules in the world, right? Especially for ground. So I think UK and London use the most cars. And then outside of that, you've got Europe as a whole. Um, and South America is really making a run for it lately because all the new factories are being built out in Mexico and Brazil and in those places. So just look, I always say, look for the factories, look for the businesses. And that's where you'll see the expansion.

Ken Lucci: 41:47

Well, um, I'm researching, uh, to do, uh, the financial and economic trends of the, the ground transportation industry. And I've been researching the growth in air travel. like a hockey stick over the next 50 years, like a hockey stick. And to your point, it, the, the cities with the most growth are the South American cities are the Asian cities. So

Susan Lichenstein: 42:16

think it'll be here in the States, guys. I think we're getting very used to doing this, what we're doing today.

James Blain: 42:21

So,

Susan Lichenstein: 42:22

I don't see the hockey stick growth. I see it much more like

Ken Lucci: 42:25

right, right, When, when, when you look at the international growth, it's it, there's no question. It's a lot, it's a lot more, but, but I was surprised at how much airline growth there is and private aviation we've not talked about, but probably a private aviation growth is incredible as well.

Susan Lichenstein: 42:41

I'm not allowed to take that either, so I don't know.

Ken Lucci: 42:43

Well,

Susan Lichenstein: 42:45

But if you want to take me on your jet someday, I'm in.

Ken Lucci: 42:51

you know, contract,

Susan Lichenstein: 42:52

I'm in for the ride. I'm in for the ride.

James Blain: 42:54

so, so let me ask you, Susan, because this is, we're hitting on something. We're talking about the future. What do you think ground transportation looks like? Right. If I, if I own a limousine company, right. Or, or I'm, you know, in that space, I've got shuttles, I've got buses, you know, I, as an operator, I really care. I really want to know what does that look like to you in 5, 10, 20 years?

Susan Lichenstein: 43:18

Yeah, so I think if I get, let's just go five, because, I don't know if I'll be here in ten. But let's just go five. In five years from now, we're going to have additional players. Right? One is going to be called the self driving car. That's real. Right? The robotic car is very real. And I think

Ken Lucci: 43:36

Phoenix. Yep.

James Blain: 43:37

I, I've ridden in the way most, right. I did a talk on AI. for Chauffeur Driven at one of

Susan Lichenstein: 43:42

love,

James Blain: 43:43

played the video of riding in it. It's coming. Whether you like it or not, it's

Susan Lichenstein: 43:47

George Jetson is here! Finally! It took us long enough to get there. So, that's gonna come. And people think it's not gonna come quickly. It is. It's gonna come starting in the next 3 or 4 years. I think we're gonna start seeing more and more and more of that. Right? So, in the next 5 to 10 years, we're gonna start to see all those local routes. That's gonna happen. I expect to see things like in Manhattan, where you can't move. If you don't have robotic transportation, you're not gonna be allowed in. You know, I think that some of the bigger cities are gonna move into robotic trolley cars, like Denver did. Things like that. You have to.

James Blain: 44:17

Europe did that with electric vehicles in the inner cities, right? You go to certain

Susan Lichenstein: 44:21

They're doing it in Colorado. They're doing it in certain cities in the, in the Midwest. It's happening already, right? So I think, whoops, that's gonna happen. Those short rides are gonna go away, right? So I think that, plus more electrical options other than just that, right? The whole Generation Z world is happy to hop on a scooter or stand on something and zoom their way through a city. Good for them. Uh, I'm not doing that yet. So, all that kind of stuff. I like sitting, but okay. So, that's all, all good. And I, I absolutely think that there'll be less companies, but more outreach. Same thing in airlines. Less airlines, but more outreach, right? So, there'll always be a need for regional service. There just will be. Because it's not

James Blain: 45:01

no way around it

Susan Lichenstein: 45:02

You know why? Because it's not profitable. So even if you look at an Uber or Lyft and you look two hours from a city and you get in that Uber, first of all, they won't even take you because the driver is probably local and he doesn't want to drive two hours out without taking a ride home. So you're probably not getting one of those, which means there's an opportunity for managed car services, managed cars to figure out, Hmm, let me get out of the cities. Let me see what's surrounding the cities that Uber and Lyft aren't doing. And what can I offer to bring those people to the places they want to go? They're an hour and a half out, an hour out, two hours out, at a good price, at a good service, as part of a group hitting off each other. So even if I'm New York and I want to do somebody in Westchester, or I want to do somebody in Jersey, I don't have to send my guy there. How can I be on the technology to send somebody's guy there, like it's my, whatever it is, and then, oh, oh, oh, yeah, it's transparent. And we're all together, it's all a click of a button. www. larryweaver. com So I see that underlaying walls start to disappear if you want to be successful. You're in a plug and play world somewhere, um, I'm just gonna say somewhere. And, um, and then I see some areas being taken by just technology. And, and it's happened everywhere else, right? It's happened everywhere else. We're 20 years late to the game. You know, I used to say to people all the time, they're like, So what's new, Sue? I go, let me see. 18 years in, nothing. Nothing's new. Yeah. They go put it on the leisure side. I go, I know for some reason on the leisure side, everybody's cool and groovy. I'm on the business side, nothing. In the last few years, it's ridiculously fast. Ridiculously fast, right? So, I mean, just look what's happening in the new, uh, platforms for travel, like the new guys out there. NFTs are starting to happen. Blockchain spreading out. On the payment, on the program. It's ridiculous. So James can book anywhere he wants. Don't forget my data. And James claims himself, we're all good.

James Blain: 46:54

and and you're hitting on something really important that I think that if you're a Transportation company owner this has been preached at you it preached at you and preached at you and if you haven't heated this heat it now data is power if I Ride with you and you find out my preferences and you don't find a way to store track and capitalize on that We are all whether we like it or not We are all creatures of habit and the ones that are able to take advantage of our habits Are the ones that we love and get sticky with because we develop new habits and they automatically take advantage of it Go to amazon, right? We've talked about them several times. It knows what you buy. It knows what

Ken Lucci: 47:33

knows what you're gonna buy. It knows what you've been looking at.

Susan Lichenstein: 47:39

of, yeah, and a lot of suppliers tell me all the time, No, I'm not worried, because I have a contract with these guys and they're not going anywhere. I go, Dude, they are,

Ken Lucci: 47:46

They are. And you know what?

Susan Lichenstein: 47:48

They're coming to my platform, so you have to play well, and, Nope, don't have to. Okay, and what happens? They're no longer their supplier.

Ken Lucci: 47:54

right. And listen, but

Susan Lichenstein: 47:56

by the customer now. It's not driven by the supplier.

Ken Lucci: 48:00

by the customer and what everybody needs. Please, everybody hear me when I say this. Every single company is on an even playing field. So the global networks, the regional player, the local, we all live or die, rise and fall. By what the customer wants. Not, not anymore, like you said, I have the RFP, it's me and so and so.

Susan Lichenstein: 48:25

But I never need to meet James in my whole life. I just have to pay attention to his behavior through data and get delivered to I've never met any, nobody at Amazon's cut to my house and said, well, Hey, good to meet you. What color do you like, Susan? Nobody's ever

James Blain: 48:38

you probably never interacted with a human right other you ever try to call amazon. Good luck

Susan Lichenstein: 48:44

they know what I'm doing. And so they give me a great experience. And the last thing I'm going to say is that I wanted to say this on the podcast because I know I'm sure we have to go. You guys need to hire more women. It's embarrassing to see three women in a room and none of two of them, only two of them were executives,

Ken Lucci: 49:00

oh, absolutely.

Susan Lichenstein: 49:01

And I'm going to tell you why. I'm going to tell you why women are better strategists when it comes to a full customer experience and very good at managing data. And men are very good at focusing on making money, right? They're really good at it, right? They're good. They have focus, and that's what happened in this industry. The focus became on, who can I grab? Never let go of making money. If you wanna transition, you need to reach out to the women in the industry and bring a couple into your company because you need to hear what's happening as a. Because ground transportation is no longer just 5 percent of the program. It's part of the program. It still might be 5 percent of the spend, but it's part now of the full

Ken Lucci: 49:40

Of the whole thing.

Susan Lichenstein: 49:42

We don't tell James, you're on your own anymore. When you go from home to the airport, the airport home and everything in between. We tell James, yep, we have the full experience and I have your back from the minute you step out of the house to the minute you come back. That's changing rapidly and you need to get fresh blood in there. When I say fresh blood, diversity creates an amazing company. It does. And you guys could start in this industry. If you're listening, I'm saying this with love and affection. You will do a better industry by getting more diverse, by putting more women in there, by putting more diversity in there. So, because that's an experience.

Ken Lucci: 50:17

And Suze,

Susan Lichenstein: 50:18

experience if you still have the same mindset.

Ken Lucci: 50:20

Suze, the diversity can't be just the driver.

Susan Lichenstein: 50:23

No, no,

Ken Lucci: 50:24

The diversity,

Susan Lichenstein: 50:25

about running the company,

Ken Lucci: 50:27

Right. That's exactly right. And I just wanted to throw that out there. I wanted to throw that out there. The other sad part is sadly,

Susan Lichenstein: 50:37

the women to stand up and there were four, I was like, whoa, whoa, whoa. Now I understand why we're so stubborn in our swim lanes. You have to have diversity of thought in

Ken Lucci: 50:46

stubborn, stubborn in the swim lane. Do you know how in the pools they have those ropes in between slip? We don't have that in the industry. We have concrete, right?

James Blain: 50:56

with barbed wire on it

Ken Lucci: 50:57

we have barbed wire on it. Stay in your lane. So but the only reason I'm

Susan Lichenstein: 51:02

will only grow your company to have diversity of thought. You can't hurt it.

James Blain: 51:05

Oh, Absolutely.

Ken Lucci: 51:07

when when I go to speed dating with private equity firms and family offices to try to get

Susan Lichenstein: 51:12

want to know this, James, to speed it?

Ken Lucci: 51:14

speed dating, it's, it's about getting money into the industry, right? They all say the same thing to me. Your industry is, is too far behind. It's very, very far behind. It's, it should have been consolidated 20 years ago. Where's the tech? By the way, we will put a plug in for the right people to get you on the big stage in Vegas.

Susan Lichenstein: 51:34

no, I'm just saying it just needs to be heard over and over and over again. But if we can get a bigger conversation going, That would be cool, right, right, from around the country, not just Florida, right, you know what I'm saying, like, because it would be interesting to hear, you know, what they're doing with their global customers today, right, what they're thinking about, because it's changing. It's now becoming a mandatory part of the experience, like mandatory part of the experience in business travel. It's just end to end. I cannot think of ground separately anymore. If I'm a travel leader inside a company, I better know, I have to think of James as a being, Leaving his house, coming home from his house and the experience in the middle. And if James doesn't like it all, I'm going to lose James. It's a new generation Z. Bye bye. I'm going to lose James.

Ken Lucci: 52:19

See, James, you're really the problem in the entire you really are the problem.

James Blain: 52:24

I'm i'm the solution

Ken Lucci: 52:26

you and my business partner, my my my my 32 year old business partner who wants to do everything Anyway, Susan, thank you so much for doing this. We definitely want to have you on again. And, um,

Susan Lichenstein: 52:42

I had a great time.

Ken Lucci: 52:44

thanks for doing this. I can't wait till we're on the next stage again. And, and it's

Susan Lichenstein: 52:49

let you go first this time. So it'd be

Ken Lucci: 52:51

Oh, please, we all put him to sleep. You'll have to revive them. Absolutely. No question about it.

James Blain: 52:58

it's always on me

Ken Lucci: 53:00

All right, Susan, thank you so much. Appreciate it.

53:04

Thank you for listening to the ground transportation podcast. If you enjoyed this episode, please remember to subscribe to the show on apple, Spotify, YouTube, or wherever you get your podcasts. For more information about PAX training and to contact James, go to PAX training.com. And for more information about driving transactions and to contact Ken, Go to driving transactions.com. We'll see you next time on the ground transportation podcast.