James Blaine 0:25

Hello everybody and welcome back to another episode of the Ground Transportation Podcast. I am super excited today we've got Michelle Petski from Panorama Tours. Uh, you're on several boards, you are super involved in the industry. You have a family business in the industry. I think we're probably gonna have more than we could possibly fit into just one episode, but boy are we gonna try. Welcome to the podcast. Thank you for coming on.

Michele Petilicki 0:49

Thanks James. I really appreciate being here. Um, this is my first podcast, full disclosure, so, um, it's gonna be interesting for sure.

James Blaine 0:57

It's gonna be great. I know it. So I would say we love to start with kind of your background and knowing that you have your dad with you in the business. He kind of founded it. Can you tell us kind of where does the business come from and then how do you grow into the business? What's kind of your, your entry point in the history there?

Michele Petilicki 1:15

Sure. So it's, it's actually neat because people that meet me think that I grew up in the, in the business. My, my dad founded the business in 1995. I was

James Blaine 1:24

Okay.

Michele Petilicki 1:25

16 at the time. And yes, I just dated myself. Um, and then I left and I went to college. So I really had very little to do with Panorama in the early years.

James Blaine 1:34

Okay.

Michele Petilicki 1:35

when I was very, very young, my uncle did have a business in town, a bus company, mountain View Tours, in which after Polish school we'd go over there and I'd get to see the buses and hang out with them over there. But other than that, my involvement in the industry didn't happen until after college.

James Blaine 1:49

Okay.

Michele Petilicki 1:50

So a little bit different than, than what is expected when you see the next generation come in where you anticipate they were in it and doing it. Um, mine started later,

James Blaine 2:01

Okay. So you've, you've clearly jumped in head first, right? You're in the business, you're in the industry. What does that look like then? Right? So dad starts the company when you're 16, you go off to college, you know what, can you kind of tell us of those early years? Is that something where dad would kind of tell you how it's going and then at some point later you join? What does that evolution kind of look like? Because clearly it looks like you're sitting in the driver's seat now. Right?

Michele Petilicki 2:27

We are sitting in the driver's seat for sure. Um, it was, I was graduating college without an actual firm direction

James Blaine 2:35

Okay. Like many of us, those that even make it right.

Michele Petilicki 2:39

Yeah. and my dad said, so Michelle, you don't really know where you're going or what you're doing. Why don't you come help me for a little bit? You know, I recognize this is not what you wanna do in life, but just, just for a little bit. And, that's where it started. And I, and I came in as a salesperson, you know, talking to customers. I was a bartender. It's how I paid for college, and I

James Blaine 3:01

That's a sales job.

Michele Petilicki 3:02

Yeah. You know, I had that customer conversation going, I, you know, and, and I enjoyed that. Um, and then CSA came in really, really strong and they started doing these compliance audits and suffice it to say we did not have that paperwork part together because we were young. This was in 2009 or oh eight.

James Blaine 3:25

Okay.

Michele Petilicki 3:26

and we were just figuring out, well, what part of this needs to be kept on record? How many records and whatnot. So when they came in and they saw what we had, they said, well, if it's not documented, it never happened.

James Blaine 3:37

Yep.

Michele Petilicki 3:37

oh. here we go. So I dove headfirst into that and it turned out that I really loved that part.

James Blaine 3:45

You love the compliance part, you love the paperwork part. Okay.

Michele Petilicki 3:48

part. Um, and so that's where I said, you know what? I think I can make a business out of this. I think that this isn't just something that I'm gonna do temporarily for right now. This is, this is what I'm gonna do. Um, and that's kind of where it went. Um, I did end up getting married in the interim. I had some babies. Um,

James Blaine 4:05

Life. You had a life.

Michele Petilicki 4:06

I did, I did. And then, um, I guess 2013, I said to my dad, if this is what I'm going to lead, I need to lead it my way because

James Blaine 4:17

Okay,

Michele Petilicki 4:17

leading it doesn't work for my leadership style. Um, and that was really a big pivot point for us.

James Blaine 4:23

so let's back up for a second. So you come to the business it sounds like 2008, 2009 ish, right? You're

Michele Petilicki 4:31

in oh two,

James Blaine 4:32

okay.

Michele Petilicki 4:33

you know, then you get married and you have babies,

James Blaine 4:34

Okay, so, so you come into the business kind of oh two, life happens, right? Like, like it does to so many of us. What is it that you're walking into, right? Obviously dad starts at 1995, right? So he's building up by 2002. Where's the business at? How many employees do you guys have? What does it look like in terms of how many vehicles you're operating? What's kind of the, what's kind of the place that you're walking into? Can you set that stage for us?

Michele Petilicki 5:00

Absolutely. So he had three vehicles

James Blaine 5:03

Okay.

Michele Petilicki 5:04

my uncle that I mentioned earlier, mountain View tours, had a medical situation in which he needed to pull out of the business very, very quickly.

James Blaine 5:11

Okay.

Michele Petilicki 5:11

with that, my uncle had a fleet of six, if I'm not mistaken. Don't quote me on that. Um, and although my dad wasn't looking to take all of them, there was a facility involved. And so that's where my dad moved in, helped to fill the void of where my uncle was coming out. Um, and that's when I was coming in to help support that transition. Um, and so from the three he went to five.

James Blaine 5:35

Okay. So you're almost walking into what sounds like a little bit of a merger or an acquisition then,

Michele Petilicki 5:40

Yes, yes, that is correct.

James Blaine 5:42

so, I guess, walk us through then, you are coming in at sales. Are you guys then dealing with your customers and their customers and having to learn two different systems? How did that, how did that kinda look like walking into that?

Michele Petilicki 5:54

So at that time, there were no systems, James. It was paper, pencil, and a calendar, right?

James Blaine 5:59

I just had to set it up. We, we all knew that was coming.

Michele Petilicki 6:03

There's, there's no set sales strategy, there's no nothing. You're answering the phone when it rings. There's no cell phones. Really,

James Blaine 6:11

Yeah.

Michele Petilicki 6:11

of that, right? If there's a breakdown, you're on the side of the road. You gotta go find a toll booth in order to figure out what's happening. Um, the, the mechanics had their own tools with them, and they were fixing it just to, and everything was mechanical,

James Blaine 6:23

Yeah.

Michele Petilicki 6:23

you rig it to get it to the next spot. Um, but everything was paper, pencil, it was. So, so to say that I walked into systems and integrations and this,

James Blaine 6:34

Yeah.

Michele Petilicki 6:34

didn't exist. There was none of that. It was, it was really, okay, here we go. Uh, yeah, the phone rings Panorama, how

James Blaine 6:41

Yeah.

Michele Petilicki 6:41

you? And, and he went from there.

James Blaine 6:44

So at that point, are you guys doing tours or what type of work is kind of the bread and butter that you're coming into?

Michele Petilicki 6:49

So it was charter.

James Blaine 6:51

Okay.

Michele Petilicki 6:52

dad did tours when he had his one bus. Um, we are Polish very, very Polish. Um,

James Blaine 6:58

That means the food is delicious. I will put that out there right now.

Michele Petilicki 7:01

it is fantastic. Um, and although technically I'm like a second, third ish generation of sorts, um, because my mom was born here and

James Blaine 7:11

Ah,

Michele Petilicki 7:12

it's not important. We all speak Polish and we are all very much involved in the, um, the Polish culture. In fact, my dad was a Marsha at the Polish Day parade just a few

James Blaine 7:20

awesome.

Michele Petilicki 7:21

So like, we're very much involved in that. That takes me to, at that time there were a lot of Polish tourists coming in,

James Blaine 7:27

Yeah.

Michele Petilicki 7:28

were working through the summer to be here,

James Blaine 7:30

Yep.

Michele Petilicki 7:30

to also see things in the process. So our tours would be ski trips because they loved to go skiing to the mountains, to Vermont, to Lake Placid. Um, in fact, I actually ran my first one when I was 16 on my dad's bus with all my friends from high school. And we went on a ski trip. Um, I met my husband on a ski trip on my bus. Uh, my brother met his wife on a casino trip on our bus. Um, all trips that we were hosting that we did. But

James Blaine 7:57

This, this really sounds like growing up in the business, right? I mean, it didn't start till I, I don't know about you, but until I, I don't remember much below like middle school. Right. But it, I mean, so it really does sound like to a certain extent you guys were part of the community and you did kind of grow up in the culture. And the culture is kind of what supported it then.

Michele Petilicki 8:16

in a lot of ways. Yeah. So we started at tours,

James Blaine 8:19

Okay.

Michele Petilicki 8:19

tours

James Blaine 8:20

That makes sense.

Michele Petilicki 8:21

From that perspective in, in which it was the running of those tours. And then from there to supplement it, my uncle would give my dad work that was charter driven,

James Blaine 8:30

Okay.

Michele Petilicki 8:30

customers. From there, his charter started to expand and grow, and he grabbed the second bus and a third bus, but he parked at a gas station and the dump and everything was the gas station

James Blaine 8:39

Huh.

Michele Petilicki 8:40

And, you know, really doing it as, as we could. And my brother was awesome at the time. He was in college, but living at home and helping out wherever he could, however he could during those early days. Um, and, and they made it work until we moved to the new place into oh 1, 0 2 and, and just kind of took off from there.

James Blaine 8:58

Okay, so you come in, now you, you've got kind of Mountain View has come together with Panorama Tours. It's evolved kind of past the tour. Sounds like we're at about what, six, seven buses at that point.

Michele Petilicki 9:08

Uh, I think five, six.

James Blaine 9:10

Five, six. At that point, you're doing the sales. How does, how does coming in and helping dad with sales kind of evolve to where you're at now? Walk us through how that kind of growth cycle comes and, and you start kind of changing roles. Is that something where you worked in other areas as well, or did you just kinda shift more into a leadership role?

Michele Petilicki 9:31

I think it's a combination of all of

James Blaine 9:33

Okay.

Michele Petilicki 9:33

and, and an integration of how I ended up getting much more involved in the industry and how that brought things back. So I guess best way I could put it is yes, I started in sales.

James Blaine 9:43

Okay.

Michele Petilicki 9:44

Then I fell in love with the compliance part, but because there was so much to learn, it was like drinking out of a fire hose. so I started going to different things so I could learn as much as I could so that we were doing it right.

James Blaine 9:56

Okay.

Michele Petilicki 9:57

and I don't know, this is going way back, but West Barber at the time was very big into the compliance, and he was like my number one resource. When I, when I had a question and I needed something, I went straight to the F-M-C-S-A source. I'm like, Wes, I wanna know, da, da da. And so I wanted to more know more and more and more and more. My dad saw that in me. He saw that drive for the knowledge and wanting to continuously get better through that. And he said, all right, Michelle, you go do that. You go figure that out. Um, you wanna go be a part of this? Yes. Go, go figure out, take the lesson.

James Blaine 10:30

Yeah.

Michele Petilicki 10:31

great. I actually went and took, uh, the bus and Motor Coach Academy all the way through while I was pregnant. I had one baby and then pregnant for the other one.

James Blaine 10:38

Yeah.

Michele Petilicki 10:39

that process, I went and completed the bus and Motor Coach Academy and got the accreditation for passenger transportation, just another little something so that I could bring it in so that we're doing it better. then I said, well, let me start going to these greater New Jersey Motor Coach meetings. You know, this is, they're all the big dogs.

James Blaine 10:55

Yep.

Michele Petilicki 10:56

really? They were the big dogs. And I was just this little itty bitty pee on ankle biter,

James Blaine 11:01

Yeah. Yeah.

Michele Petilicki 11:03

And I'm like, lemme go see what they're doing. And uh, and then I went and I said, they're really, they're great, but they're really feeding towards the larger operator. What happens to the little guys like me?

James Blaine 11:14

Okay.

Michele Petilicki 11:14

this, we are growing, right? So we're up to a seven bus company, eight motor coaches approximately. So, well, how do we. You know, there's those that are even smaller than me, the one two busters,

James Blaine 11:28

Yeah.

Michele Petilicki 11:28

here I am considered a bigger guy to them, but all the stuff that they're offering is so much more, how can I make an impact? And so that's why I said, I'm gonna join the board. Yeah, let's do this.

James Blaine 11:40

And, and how you're, you're how far into the business at this point, right? So, so two, 2002, you come in, you know, have the family kinda 2008 now you've kinda grown a little bit. So is this 2010 ish, or how far down the road is this?

Michele Petilicki 11:53

have to really look at the years, but I probably 11, 12, maybe somewhere in there

James Blaine 11:59

Okay.

Michele Petilicki 12:00

I'm getting involved with

James Blaine 12:01

You're starting to get your footing.

Michele Petilicki 12:03

Yes, yes. Um, and then in, in right around that 12, 13, I said to my dad, I, I wanna do this my way.

James Blaine 12:11

Okay.

Michele Petilicki 12:11

dad was a very direct leader. He was. For lack of a better phrase, very, very old school. Like, this is how it needs to be done. This is how

James Blaine 12:19

Now,

Michele Petilicki 12:20

do it, and we're gonna do it like this. Um, he's, he was amazing at laying down the right foundation. We had all the right pieces, all the right things, but when it came to how he led his people, it was very dictatorship and whatnot. That's not me. I'm, I'm, I'm not really good at that.

James Blaine 12:35

okay,

Michele Petilicki 12:35

makes me very uncomfortable to say, you have to do it like this, because I said, so I don't raise my children that way. I'm just not, it doesn't work for me. So I said, I'll, I'll do it, but you gotta let me do it my way. And he said, all right, let's go. We became a woman owned bus company.

James Blaine 12:51

so you're stepping into leadership at this point. This is, this is Michelle taking the reins.

Michele Petilicki 12:55

That's it. That's it. He, uh, we act, I actually got the presidency earlier, but then with the kids, I said that I didn't actually do it until right around this time. Um, and then we made the decision to join Spader. Um, joining a 20 group allowed me, uh, I guess. It gave me the backing to make the decisions that I wanna make. I had support from them. It gave me confidence

James Blaine 13:20

Yeah.

Michele Petilicki 13:21

otherwise, because my dad and I would go together, right?

James Blaine 13:23

Yeah.

Michele Petilicki 13:24

my Spader group was amazing, listening to my dad talk and then listening to me talk. And

James Blaine 13:28

Yeah.

Michele Petilicki 13:29

my dad would have his thing and then I would have my thing. Um, and they were great at supporting my growth, and my dad was awesome at letting me do it, you know, letting me take the reins and saying, all right, Michelle, go with it. This is yours.

James Blaine 13:41

He's so, it really, you know, it's, it's one of the neat things of working with a family, right? You know, as a father, I always say that anybody that doesn't want their kids to be better than them has something wrong with them. Does that mean there's not gonna be that moment where you're like, man, kids finally bettered me. This, this hurts. That hurts a little bit over here, but God, I couldn't be prouder. So I think that makes a lot of sense. Now let me ask you, we have people from all kinds of parts of the ground transportation industry. Tell us a little bit, what is a Spader group kind of describe that for people that are going Spader group. I've never heard of that. Um, obviously, you know, you've mentioned it's a 20 group, but what does that kind look like? What's kind of the value that you're getting there and what's kind of the involvement that you have?

Michele Petilicki 14:20

So for, for my group specifically, we are our biggest advocates. We are our support, we are our board of directors outside of our

James Blaine 14:31

Like an advisory board then?

Michele Petilicki 14:33

yeah, so we're financially accountable to each other. We're talking about what's going on, and they're asking me and challenging me on some of my decisions and some of my expenses, um, on some of my rates on whatever that would be. They're, they're invested in my success just as I'm invested in their success. Um, we now not invested financially invested emotionally and and whatnot. Um, we are non-competes. Of similar size, uh, in different markets. So I'm here in Jersey. We've got a member in Maine. We've got a member out in Washington. We had a member down in Florida. We've got Iowa, we've got Texas. So I mean, you're talking nationwide, so there are nuances, right? Me in the Manhattan market, my insurance is always gonna be the highest in the group. There's just no way around

James Blaine 15:19

Not the lottery you wanna win, but the one you got,

Michele Petilicki 15:22

It's the one I got. Same thing with tolls.

James Blaine 15:24

yeah.

Michele Petilicki 15:25

are always gonna be the highest over here. It's, you know, I can't go three miles without hitting a toll booth somewhere. Um, so, so, but I get to see month after month after month where the trends are, where they're at,

James Blaine 15:38

All right.

Michele Petilicki 15:39

am in relation to that, and I can adjust my business strategy accordingly to make sure that I continue to be successful.

James Blaine 15:45

Well, and it's, it's interesting because I think every single successful guest, every single successful company, it's the number one thing we hear over and over is mentorship, right? You've gotta have people that are there to support you. You've gotta have people that are there to point out the potholes so that you don't drive into them. You've got so many people that have kind of blazed the trail that you're following, and I kid you not. This is something that comes up almost every single podcast, and it doesn't seem to be something that's industry specific, right? It doesn't matter what side of ground transportation you're on, that's key. So at this point, you're kind of growing, you've finally taken the reins, right? We've now got you in charge of the company. What happens next?

Michele Petilicki 17:31

Uh, well, I, I just start to do it. I

James Blaine 17:34

Yeah.

Michele Petilicki 17:35

really getting in there. Um, we grow out of our nine at that point into 10. I said we need a bigger facility because really our facility, uh, okay, you can't see it, you can't picture it, but it is literally this little tiny shoebox between two homes.

James Blaine 17:54

Okay.

Michele Petilicki 17:55

area on a main road that you have to back into that you would drive past and never know that this was a garage. Um, where we did all this work and all this, when my speeder group first came to visit me and they saw, I mean, they sent pictures home. If you think our facility is a problem, look at this

James Blaine 18:11

And they're making it work.

Michele Petilicki 18:12

company. You know, it was just what it was. But we moved into our next, me, our next facility, and

James Blaine 18:19

Yeah.

Michele Petilicki 18:19

to grow through there. Um, had a number of but the

James Blaine 18:25

Okay.

Michele Petilicki 18:25

that I did were unique in the sense that I'd never acquired the company and their DOT number and their stuff. It was always some sort of, uh, a nuanced deal

James Blaine 18:37

Okay.

Michele Petilicki 18:38

was beneficial for the person who wanted out.

James Blaine 18:40

Yep.

Michele Petilicki 18:41

for me to be able to take care of their people. Um, I am naturally a, a caregiver. That's what I like to do. I like taking care, care of people. I like taking care of my staff. I like taking care of my house. I just like taking care of stuff. Um, so when they were going out, I wanted to make sure that their people were taken care of and we would structure out a deal that made sense for both. Um, and was financially advent advantageous so that I could continue to care for people successfully? Um, because let's be honest, if you don't, don't have the money, you're not taking care of people, um, you're not taking care of your maintenance, you're

James Blaine 19:14

No,

Michele Petilicki 19:14

care of stuff. It, it costs money to, to do it right.

James Blaine 19:19

and I, I think there's something really important to be said there because. One of my mentors, right? Um, a Athena Grimm who's a mentor of mine out of, out of Alaska, and she, she was sitting down with me one way talking and, and she said, you know, if you can't step away for a day, if you can't leave for a day, if you can't let it run, you're gonna be terrified, right? As a business owner, the first day you're like, I'm gonna just not look at any emails, I'm just not gonna do anything. If you can't do that with your business for a day, you might not have a business. Right? And it was one of those moments for me where the first time I said, you know what? I'm gonna go take care of whatever I need to do, growth related, otherwise, you know, I'm gonna go work on this piece and know that the team, that the people that the systems and strategies I've got in place are gonna work. Um, it was absolutely mortifying, right? Um, I don't know if you, for me, that was kind of a, a game changing moment in business where you're just like, oh gosh, I'm, it, it reminds me a little bit of the first time you leave your kids alone and you're like, am I gonna come back to like a smoldering hill? That was my house? Um, but. Kind of like Athena said, what happened the first time it came back, the house was still there. Right? The business was still there. Things were great. They were doing well. And I think to your point, and you, you mentioned this in your form of leadership, you've gotta let people have ownership over what they're doing. You've gotta let people grow professionally and personally, and letting them grow professionally and personally helps you grow and ultimately lets you build a business. So,

Michele Petilicki 20:47

James, I'm so glad that you brought that up. Um, I am so proud of my team, so April for me, if anybody follows my LinkedIn has been a wild ride for sure,

James Blaine 20:57

well, you've been lots of, lots of events. Lots of, I mean,

Michele Petilicki 21:01

I, I think I was physically in the office seven days all month. It was insane. But in the month of April, we also had a compliance review

James Blaine 21:10

oh geez.

Michele Petilicki 21:11

the feds called and said, we're coming next week. And I said, I'm not around, but sure, why not?

James Blaine 21:17

Really trusting the team.

Michele Petilicki 21:19

we, I got my letter, uh, last week of satisfactory rating. Everything's done. Not a single

James Blaine 21:25

Awesome.

Michele Petilicki 21:25

I mean, if that's not a true testament to the people that I have on my team, I don't know what it's, they're just amazing. Um, and it's because of that, that. I continue to, obviously you could tell that I love what I do. I, it's, it's not a surprise. Um, but I continue to love it every day because I come back and I'm doing it with people that have that same passion and have that same

James Blaine 21:45

Yeah,

Michele Petilicki 21:46

and wanna do it and continuously want to grow and get better and, and, you know, it just, just makes it all work.

James Blaine 21:53

I, I can see that. And I think that's something important in business. So. Alright, so we've got, we've got the growth now we're doing acquisitions now. One of the interesting things, as you mentioned, you were thinking about the acquisitions differently, so I'd love to learn a little bit more. When you were looking at acquisitions, are you looking at, Hey, I want. Assets in terms of the vehicles or the property or whatever might be there. Were you looking at, I really want these people? Were you looking at the customer list? Was the combination, how did you approach that differently than someone that might traditionally acquire a company?

Michele Petilicki 22:25

So every single one of them was different.

James Blaine 22:28

Okay.

Michele Petilicki 22:29

Um, if you think about the first acquisition that my dad did, it was really about the property.

James Blaine 22:33

Yep.

Michele Petilicki 22:33

More than anything else. It was an acquisition about the property. Our next acquisition that was substantial enough was for people.

James Blaine 22:42

Okay.

Michele Petilicki 22:43

Um, they had four vehicles in their fleet and, and one big customer contract, but they had four vehicles in their fleet. I did not care for their maintenance. I knew I wasn't acquiring their assets. That was not my intent at all.

James Blaine 22:54

Yeah.

Michele Petilicki 22:55

but they had a great person in their office that I really, really wanted and they had a really advantageous contract for

James Blaine 23:01

Yeah.

Michele Petilicki 23:01

really, really wanted. So that second was very strategic for those two things. Anything else that came through was just gravy, um, or I would dump accordingly.

James Blaine 23:11

Yeah.

Michele Petilicki 23:12

so that was the next piece. Um, the next one was really about market footprint. Um, I had one section and I wanted the southern section.

James Blaine 23:22

Uh,

Michele Petilicki 23:23

the southern section. So that was really about expanding my footprint into still something that's relatively local. But growing that out. So every single one of those was, oh, and then there was one really assets I, I

James Blaine 23:34

yeah.

Michele Petilicki 23:35

and I needed them without buying brand new at the time. Um, so it was really about the assets on that one. every single one of those acquisitions, it's, it's really digging into, well, what can you offer me

James Blaine 23:47

Yep.

Michele Petilicki 23:48

can I give you so that we both walk away with what we need at the end of the day and we continue to service the people well.

James Blaine 23:54

Yeah, it, it, it's about finding a win-win. You know, I, I love the saying, you know, there are people in the world that are. Win-win. There are people in the world that are win-lose. There are people lose lose. I have always been a huge, huge person when it comes to win-win. And you know, it's funny, I always tell people I am a very trusting person and has that burned me? Absolutely. Have I been cheated? Have I been stole from, absolutely. But I would also say that I've had so many wins where that trust or that faith or, or that has really worked in my favor because if you try to operate with that mentality of, I'm always gonna be guarded, I always have to get something on the other guy. I've always gotta win. I've always gotta do that. You're going to end up in a position where you're missing on so many of the great opportunities. So I love talking to people with that same mentality.

Michele Petilicki 24:43

Yeah, so what's very cool is every single one of our acquisitions, the seller came to me directly. Um.

James Blaine 24:49

Okay.

Michele Petilicki 24:50

It was just one of those things, even something like with this most recent where DECAMP was

James Blaine 24:56

Yeah.

Michele Petilicki 24:56

what an honor it was. Now Jonathan and I, we go back a long time and we're really good friends, but for him to come to me and say, Michelle, I can't imagine anybody else other than Panorama taking care of my people. Um, would you be willing to, to step in and this is how we're going to do this? And I was like, yeah, let's, let's figure it out. Let's, let's

James Blaine 25:13

Yep.

Michele Petilicki 25:13

and figure out what's gonna work so that we can, we can make this happen. And I got the greatest email yesterday of one of his regular customers that said, DECAMP couldn't have chosen a better carrier to carry on taking care of their customers. And I'm like, oh, I love this.

James Blaine 25:27

Well, and I think, I think what's worth, you know, as a business owner myself, right? The, the name on our company is PAX Training, but a lot of times I'm serving as the face, or Bruce, my business partner, serving as the face. There's, you leave a part of you and a part of you always lives within that business, that time, that effort, that love, it becomes a part of your family. And so I think for a lot of people, I. When you get to that point, if they're looking to exit, it's okay, who's gonna take care of this family member who's, you know, it's kinda like you have your very first car, you love that car. You know, imagine if you sold that car and the second you signed it, you said, man, I'm super happy you did that. I'm gonna crush it and sell it for scrap. Right. I think all of us would be like, you're gonna do what? No, no, no, no, no. Give it back. Give it back. Um, I think we all have that same mentality with our business. We have this love, we have this pride, we have all this time we've put in. We want to know that our clients are gonna be taken care of. We want to know things are there. And I think there's a lot to be said, and Ken's not with us on this episode, but I think Ken would a hundred percent agree. A big chunk of that is all the numbers have to be there. All the financial has to work. You know, there's the business side of it. But there are plenty of deals that are, like you said. I wanna make, I would rather take less, or I'd rather do this because I know you're gonna take care of my people. You're gonna take care of my company, you're gonna take care of my customers, which I think is huge. So you've been able to kind of grow that out, scale that up, you know, talk to me a little bit about how does that, you know, how does that morph into today? Obviously you, you figured out very early on that you wanted to have a group, you wanted to have, you know, association involvement. You're on several different boards now. Obviously you've jumped in very quickly there to stick up for the little guy. Now you're kind of getting to the point where you've still got the little guy mind, but you're getting larger and larger. How does that start working in terms of industry advocacy, in terms of what you're doing in the associations, those types of things? How does that kind of evolve and grow? And then one of the big questions that I always wanna know is, what does that do for your business? Right? There's so many people that think, oh, I'm not gonna make any money on that. I shouldn't do it. But clearly you're, you're having tons of success. What does that all look like?

Michele Petilicki 28:46

So my, my involvement at, at Greater New Jersey now Greater Northeast has, um, has evolved in time where I was just a board member and now growing into a vice president role of the

James Blaine 28:57

Okay.

Michele Petilicki 28:58

Um, I became the legislative chair post covid. I don't like politics, like, I don't like the mudsling. I don't love that, but I love regulation. I love digging into the nuances of the legislation that's coming out. I love making sure that it makes sense

James Blaine 29:15

Yep.

Michele Petilicki 29:16

us here. Because a lot of the times it's written by some legislative writer who just cuts and pastes and throws stuff together, and you read it and you're like, who came up with

James Blaine 29:27

Have you ever seen a bus before?

Michele Petilicki 29:30

I mean, I don't even know it. Sometimes I just mind boggling. Um, but it was during CO. That I, I lost this intimidation factor of who Washington DC people are. Right? What Congress is, um, and how, what I say really matters. Um, it, I didn't, I didn't buy into that before. Uh, it wasn't really until I was down for that rolling for awareness, I talked for 80,000 hours. Okay, that's an exaggeration. It was really only four, but it was a very long time to be live on Facebook and talk, and talk and talk. Um, yet I continuously, evidently had something to say I had thousands of people watching me. I had people from other countries watching me while I talked about the importance of our industry.

James Blaine 30:19

Yeah.

Michele Petilicki 30:20

again, near and dear to my heart, we connect people in ways that no other mode of transportation can. We put the groups together, we

James Blaine 30:29

Yep.

Michele Petilicki 30:30

evacuations, we take care of the military. We we're there to celebrate your weddings. We're there to take you on a funeral. We're there for every single part of that. And we're not just a commodity to go from A to B. We are part of your experience and we are part of those memories and we are necessary. So while I was talking about all that stuff, I realized, gosh, I guess I do have something to say.

James Blaine 30:53

At what hour? Right? Four hours. Which, which hour was it that that clicked for you?

Michele Petilicki 30:58

it really wasn't until the end where

James Blaine 31:00

I'm kidding.

Michele Petilicki 31:00

uh, put together a bloopers reel for me and, and the bloopers reel. Oh my, oh boy. Um, but, but it, I didn't expect it to become such a big thing and it, and all of a sudden I had more and more viewers and I called my girls into the office. I'm like, I need you to start monitoring my. because I have so many comments in I can't, I don't even know what they're saying. Um, and so I had two girls on the computers helping to answer questions and comments that were coming in. And, um, and then I watched it back later and, and it was wonderful. But through that, I, I was like, all right, let's, let's see what I could do. I know I'm just little old me, but let's see what we can do here. Uh, and that's when I started to get involved on the legislative side locally.

James Blaine 31:43

Okay, so you started at the local. Now are we talking at the municipal level, the state level? Where, where did you, where'd you first jump in?

Michele Petilicki 31:50

actually it was a lot of New York jargon. Um, but, but, uh, then it was little Bergen County stuff

James Blaine 31:58

Okay.

Michele Petilicki 31:59

there. And then it was through, uh, greater New Jersey, greater Northeast Motor Coach Association that I became the chair of the legislative committee there. Um, and I helped to lead the charge in a number of little things here in the state that, that work. were problematic. Um, now we tackle things that are, uh, a little bit more regional. The congestion toll is a big thing that we're talking about. And, um, I recently spoke at a press conference with, uh, Congressman Gottheimer in regards to how if this really was a congestion, toll buses should be exempt. We are the

James Blaine 32:31

Right.

Michele Petilicki 32:32

We're not the problem.

James Blaine 32:33

If the problem is congestion, why would, why would we punish the guys that are grouping everyone into one vehicle? How? Explain to us how that works, please. Uh,

Michele Petilicki 32:43

I mean, so it's that, that type of conversation that I'm continuously having. The idle, the idle problem is huge right now. You know, those summons are coming fast and furious. They're months, sometimes almost a year late. And then you don't have your court date or your trial date or whatever they wanna call it these days until way after that your footage is gone. You can't prove your innocence most of the time. And, and they're racking up big money and it's. It's unfortunate because we have to take care of the people in our vehicle.

James Blaine 33:11

Right.

Michele Petilicki 33:12

if you are not gonna gimme time to cool down that bus to make sure that it's comfortable for my 80, 90-year-old people that are getting into that bus and then I'm sitting in traffic trying to get over the bridge back to the jersey side, they're getting sick in my vehicle. I can't have that.

James Blaine 33:27

Yeah.

Michele Petilicki 33:27

Um, not to mention other things like making sure that all the, the brake do the brake check. You can't do a brake check in less than three minutes. You know, you can't make sure that all the clicks come into place, right? You, you switch that ignition, it's gotta go click, click, click, click, click before you can start that vehicle, right? Um, and then you need people to get on and you don't have a lot of time to load curbside in New York either. Everybody's in your way, they're beeping at you, you gotta go. Um, so

James Blaine 33:53

It's like the movies.

Michele Petilicki 33:55

yeah, or you know, you get there a couple minutes earlier and the group's on their way out. Well,

James Blaine 34:00

Yeah.

Michele Petilicki 34:00

keep it running to get them to get on. They want you to circle the block again. Well, now circling the block is another 20 minutes.

James Blaine 34:06

Yep.

Michele Petilicki 34:07

your group, they're waiting. So, you know, so that conversation, continuously talking about that and the fact that, yeah, the MTA can idle, and maybe they'll write them a summons, but they don't pay. They don't pay the fine. They're exempt from paying the fine, well, why am I not exempt from paying the,

James Blaine 34:24

It is, it's really interesting. Right? And for anyone listening, it's going, oh man, New York. This, I think what a lot of people fail to realize is there's a couple places in this country where transportation kind of starts. And, and I mean that in terms of what happens in those major markets is likely gonna trickle out, is likely gonna affect everybody. They're looking at those markets, um, you know, big ones, New York, Los Angeles, right? Kind of that area, you know, the New England area, the California area, those are huge. But then you have smaller markets, Chicago, Dallas, Miami, you know, and then you got kind of the whole East coast up and down there. What I think a lot of people fail to realize is it's very easy to say, well, that's New York. Eh, that's not me. That's not my problem. And they don't notice that, hey, these become kind of the testing areas. These become kinda the focus areas. If you are not, you know, if you are, if you are just in your business, if you're just buried in your business and you're not worried about those types of things, what happens is when that wave comes, you're gonna get ran over with it. And so I think it's really important that everybody kind of hears and, and knows that these types of issues, although some of them are unique to New York. Are all issues that we're gonna eventually see kind of moving out through the country. I can share that. When I was on the Hill recently, I, I, it's my first time being on the Hill when I was in these offices and we were talking with those staffers, you know, it was, well, you know, we're, we're worried about Congestive Pro. Well, that's only New York. Well, that represents one of the largest markets for the passenger. Not just bus, not just black car. Not one of the largest markets for passenger ground transportation in the country. And let me tell you what, if the Transit authority there is doing congestion pricing and they're getting a bunch of revenue and they're bringing in a bunch of money and they're not required to make buses exempt, and they're able to take. All of Pastor Grand Transportation and essentially turn us into an ATM limps. Get real when other cities start saying, Hey, we need money in our transit authority. You know what the New Yorkers did that we should totally follow. And so I think you have these issues that start at a local level that become eventually national issues that we have to get in front of.

Michele Petilicki 36:42

Well, James, they already have projects in other, in other states that are coming in. So when I was, when I was on the hill, we did the

James Blaine 36:48

Huh.

Michele Petilicki 36:49

fly in at the beginning of the month. Um, one of the things that we really pushed hard is we have a new bill on the table. It's the HR 25 26. Um, this bill is the Bus Parody and Clarity Act. Um, and so there's a couple of things that it touches on, but the third piece of that is these congestion trolling projects. Um, yeah, we can fight on the New Jersey side. I mean the New York side. All we want over here and maybe even win, but these projects are coming in other places. What the HR 25 26 is looking to do is any new congestion, congestion project that falls under those parameters will have all buses exempt. Again, we're the solution. Not to mention all of the, all of the environmental things that we now have in place to make sure that we're not polluting the air, if we're not electric. We have so many green initiatives that have taken place over the years for our vehicles that do you, some will say that the air going out is cleaner than the air coming in. I, I haven't seen that proven. Maybe it is. It might be, but not for nothing. They're not those old smoky buses of our grandparents. It's not the same

James Blaine 37:54

Not even close. And I think, you know, I had, I had a moment. When I was in DC just kind of those head shaking moments, right? There's several of those, right? You're gonna, you go to government, you're gonna have lots of head shaking moments and you're gonna go, where's doing my taxes? Uh, but one of the interesting things is you see a lot of talk about, we need to go green. We need to do this. Do you know the irony when you would walk through the park, literally you're walking around the capitol at night and they've got these big, you know, the same thing they use in construction. You've seen that tall pole. They've got the lights on it. They light up the construction area. All of these parks, all of these areas are being built by those. And what do you hear? It's a diesel generator. I'm like, really? Really? You guys couldn't get extension cords. You couldn't plug it in. You couldn't at least hide it, right? You're gonna come after. All of these industries where, especially in busing, we've got 56 passengers on one vehicle, which means even if we make the emissions of five or six cars, we still took 50 off the road. Um, but as you're walking through the capitol, it's not birds chirping, it's la la la la. Right? They've got the diesel generator running in the background. And so I think one of the things that also was an aha moment for me was when I was sitting down with the aides, when I was sitting down in the offices and talking to the different people that are there to represent us. If they don't know your story, there's a line of people waiting to tell theirs. And so I think one of the, I, I think one of the things that, that for me wasn't as apparent is they have, you know, a line of people with asks, with needs, with considerations, and if there's another.

Michele Petilicki 39:39

all legitimate.

James Blaine 39:40

Yes. Yes.

Michele Petilicki 39:42

have a case.

James Blaine 39:43

I'm, I'm gonna, I'm gonna give a, a shout out and I don't, I don't wanna go on a tangent, but we were sitting in Jerry Moran's office, right? I'm a Kansas guy. So we were sitting there at Jerry Moran's office, um, and these, some of the sweetest ladies I ever met in my life came in and they were family members of, you know, soldiers, right? People putting their lives on the line, right? They're married to people in the military and they were there to talk, to, talk to the fact that they have mold in their homes on base. They have children that are getting sick, right? These are people that are laying down their lives for our country that are literally ready to die, defending the freedom of America and their kids, their wives, their families, their spouses are living in homes that have mold, and their kids are getting sick, right? Think about that. You're overseas, you're fighting, potentially putting your life on the line, dying over there and back home. Your family or even at base, wherever you're at, your family is dying of molt. Uh, it immediately was one of those heart-stopping moments of you have people with similar things coming in and out. There were union reps, there was the, you know, trucking industry. You have all these people coming through and the thing becomes there. If your story story's not getting told, you're not gonna get represented. So let me ask you what. What would you say to the operators that are kind of smaller? Uh, you know, maybe they're not, maybe they've never had that aha moment. I'll be blunt, when we started the podcast, I didn't think anybody wanna listen to me? To my listeners, thank you for listening to me. I hope I'm making you proud. Um, I still wonder whether or not I'm giving you exactly what you want, so please let me know if I am. But what do you say to those people that maybe are the more introverted, the shy-er ones that, hey, I don't know that I'm ever gonna go start a podcast or be on a board or talk to, you know, a legislator or another representative. What do you, what do you tell them in terms of how they can get involved, how they can support, how they can be a part of the solution?

Michele Petilicki 41:40

I think everybody has a voice, even if it's a little bit quieter. Um, your perspective is valid. A hundred percent your perspective is reality. And if you don't share it, you're never gonna, you're never gonna be able to get back what you give. Um, and be authentic. I, I, that all the time, right? Don't tell me what you think you want me to hear. I need to know what you have to say, even if you don't think that I'm gonna like it. Because through that, there's continuous growth, growth within the community, growth for anybody personally who has the opportunity to talk to you. Um, and relationships that continue to get built. Um, one of the, so going back to the hill and so we do our fly in.

James Blaine 42:21

Huh,

Michele Petilicki 42:21

For me, it is probably one of my favorite events all year that I look forward to. Um, the relationships that I build allow me to be able to go to somebody when I have a problem. If you just go to somebody every time you have a problem, they don't wanna listen to you. But if you go to them and you talk to

James Blaine 42:37

huh.

Michele Petilicki 42:37

you build relationships with them, well now, okay, now you've got a dialogue. Now there's something. And not only can you go to them when you have a problem, but they're now coming to me when they've got a concern or they have a question, or they have a bill that came across their desk that has to deal with this. What does that look like? Right? How does that affect you being an operator on the ground? Does this affect you? Is this in a good way or in a bad way? Um, so when it comes to that particular event, whether you're introverted and quiet, or whether you can talk and talk and talk, it doesn't matter because every single organization, whether you went for NLA right, and, and you went for

James Blaine 43:14

W Yeah, so, so I was there for na, I missed, unfortunately I missed yo MAs this year. I, I wasn't able to make it to that one. So I went to the National Limousine Association when I was there on the hill. And then the day after turnaround, go right back to the hill representing a transportation alliance. Right. Send concept. Different list of asks. Right. A little more tailored to that industry.

Michele Petilicki 43:31

But, but they provide you with everything you need,

James Blaine 43:34

Yes.

Michele Petilicki 43:35

the lobbyists do such a great job of structuring your meetings. You're never alone. If it just so happens that there's nobody else in your particular delegation that can go with you, well, they'll send somebody of their own so that you

James Blaine 43:47

Yeah.

Michele Petilicki 43:48

and you feel confident. You're never left out there saying, oh, what am I gonna talk about? How am I gonna do this? And they give you a flyer. So, worst case scenario, you go in, you introduce yourself, you tell them a little bit about you, uh, the company you run, how many employees you have, and then you leave them behind with the flyer and say, if you have any questions, give,

James Blaine 44:07

Oh,

Michele Petilicki 44:08

and I'll see what I can do and see what I can find out for you. I'll connect you with the right people. So it doesn't have to be a, a super chatty, extroverted person. This is

James Blaine 44:17

now.

Michele Petilicki 44:18

that sometimes the quietest voices are the loudest.

James Blaine 44:21

And I think the other thing that people don't realize is it's a conversation. You know, you have the ability to talk to them, to ask them things, to have a conversation. I know that we were sitting in an office and we were talking about a piece of legislation, and it was, well, you know, that's more on the house side. That's not really something that we're dealing with right now. It's the house side. Okay, great. Well, what, what would you tell us, right, if I said, Hey, we're gonna have you come with us, you're gonna come with us to our next meeting, and you were gonna be sitting there, this is who we're gonna go talk to. Do you have any advice? What would you say? How would you approach it? Um, you know, how, what are, what's kind of the general feeling? What's China? The general thought around the office. I will tell you the, the big aha moment for me is when you think of legislators. You know, when I was a kid, I thought of, you know, they're all in the, the Capitol building and they're all in there, and it's all these old people and they're all, you know, debating these things and having. It really what, what happened to me is I got there, and for those of you that that don't know, right? You've got the Capitol building, there's three buildings on the south side that make up the house. Um, it's the cannon, it's the Longworth and it's the Rayburn, um, cannon being kind of the historic pretty one on the north side, right? You have the other side of it. That's where you have the Senate, you've got your, um, and, and gosh, I hope I get these right. So you've got the Russell building, you've got the Kinson, and then you've got the heart, right? And that's in order. Russell being the historic, what I didn't realize is, guys, this is like a little college. You've got a tunnel that runs to the capitol in between, so it goes from Canon to the Capitol, and you have one that goes from Russell to the Capitol and they can go back and forth and then the three buildings are connected underground. Um, and it really felt to me, I was like, I'm back on the KU campus, right? Um, it, it's a lot of younger people there that are actually the staffers that are doing everything. Guess what they all do. They all go down to the cafeteria in the basement together. They all know each other. A lot of the staffers that we talk to, oh, I've worked for so and so and I worked for here, and I jumped from the house side to this side. And so I think one of the things that was really interesting to me is that there's you, you go there expecting one thing, you find another, and then you've got your kind of list of asks. But I think for me, a lot of it was kind of having that education that I got from being there, from being involved. And I think kind of like we've already talked about your advocacy there.

Michele Petilicki 46:44

you know, the first time you go in and they do prep you and

James Blaine 46:46

Yeah.

Michele Petilicki 46:47

you're probably gonna have meetings more with staff than with your actual congressmen and women. But the staffers are the ones that are so knowledgeable. They really know the information.

James Blaine 46:57

They're the one doing the work.

Michele Petilicki 46:58

that done. Yeah. Yeah. it's, it's pretty wild while you're sitting there and they've. They really do their research, so I, I love seeing that. And, and you're right, they're young.

James Blaine 47:08

They, they, I, I, I've got a 20-year-old stepdaughter and the first meeting we sat down with, I went, oh Lord, I am pitching my industry to my stepdaughter. I really hope she doesn't pull her phone out and jump on TikTok. Um, no, in all seriousness, it, it was, it was a very eye-opening in different experience. So, you know, obviously those events have come and gone. They were very successful for all the industries that went. What does it look like to you being involved in these associations, being on the board of these associations? One of the things I hear all the time from people is, I don't wanna put my time into that. 'cause that's not gonna grow my company. That's not gonna make me money. That's not gonna increase my revenues. Um, clearly you guys have been extraordinarily successful. How do those types of things kind of translate over and what are some of the non-direct benefits that you see that you would encourage people to be involved with?

Michele Petilicki 47:59

So, yeah, I, I am very, very much involved, but it, it actually stems back to, uh, my dad, uh, when I started and how he said to me, you know, this, this business is built on relationships.

James Blaine 48:10

Yep.

Michele Petilicki 48:11

It's relationships within, it's relationships in the community, it's relationships beyond. Um, and that's how you move the needle from being a commodity to being something more. Uh, and so with that, I was able to take that mentality moving forward and say, all right, where am I most impactful while also being to being able to bring everything back that I need. Again, I'm a woman in an industry that predominantly has been male for a long

James Blaine 48:37

Yep.

Michele Petilicki 48:38

when I got in. It's not so much like that anymore. In fact, it's actually really cool to see, see that shift. Um, but at the time I recognized that there were a lot of disadvantages walking into the room as a woman when there were no other men there. How do I make a difference and how do I get them to treat me as an equal that I can bring it back? Um, what I found is that the real men are real men and they have no problem mentoring a

James Blaine 49:02

Yeah.

Michele Petilicki 49:02

and it was never an issue and it was never a problem. Those that felt it was well. Sorry, you're missing out.

James Blaine 49:08

Yeah.

Michele Petilicki 49:09

and that was that. But going out there and being involved and building these relationships, you continuously learn something and you can bring it back. Uh, my first Seder meeting, meeting, I learned about a tax credit that I wasn't taking advantage of

James Blaine 49:24

Oh, geez. Yeah.

Michele Petilicki 49:27

I could go back three years and get it. Well, I just paid for my next five years of spader

James Blaine 49:31

savings. Instant savings.

Michele Petilicki 49:33

Yeah. So it's, it's that. Then you have a conversation at the bar at a UMA expo, right? And you're sitting there and you're talking to somebody and it just turns out that they have a client in their neck of the woods that does a lot of work in the New York market as well. You know what? I was just sending them to whoever. How would you feel about giving them a or them giving you a shot? I would

James Blaine 49:53

Huh?

Michele Petilicki 49:54

Out of nowhere. On top of that, I happen to have a, a bus breakdown a NOx sensor of all things out in the boom docks in the middle of the country.

James Blaine 50:04

Oh geez. Oh, geez.

Michele Petilicki 50:07

I'm just outside of St. Louis. What am I gonna do? How am I, and I start flipping, oh, and I'm in Florida on a fishing trip. Mind you, while this is all happening, and my girls are doing a great job trying to figure out, okay, we can do this, this, that, and then finally they're at wit's end. They're like, Michelle, we don't know where else to go. So here I am flipping through my contacts. I'm like, all right, who have I seen? Who do I know? And, you know, it's, it's those relationships that it's on a Saturday at night,

James Blaine 50:31

Yep.

Michele Petilicki 50:31

me out. They're gonna take care of me. They're gonna make sure that it gets done. Um, and, and so those are actionable situations, right? Take a step out of that. As you grow as a human, as a leader, as somebody in your community, um, need, you need mentors. Um, at the same time, you need to be a mentor in doing that, by giving back. In that give and take, I, I think that grows our. it grows our economy. It makes sure that the next generation coming through is responsible and they're givers and

James Blaine 51:10

right.

Michele Petilicki 51:11

takers. Um, you know, my kids in middle school, they were part of a tres program. I don't know if you've ever heard of

James Blaine 51:16

No, no, no. Enlighten me. What is this

Michele Petilicki 51:18

So a res program. It's an entrepreneurial type of program in

James Blaine 51:22

already? Love it.

Michele Petilicki 51:24

they have to go from inventing this product

James Blaine 51:26

Okay.

Michele Petilicki 51:27

the product, to ultimately selling the product in, in a marketplace, you know? And, and my son came up with these little bo sockets that, you know, it's boy odors short bo and you would put them in their sports shoes and they were filled with baking soda and like a little bit of lavender oil,

James Blaine 51:43

I could use that for my hockey gear I'm already interested in.

Michele Petilicki 51:46

Yeah. And, and would sell. And, and he cut them and made them out of old sheets that were then just tied together. And, and he sold all of his stuff and he had to market

James Blaine 51:55

Huh?

Michele Petilicki 51:55

price it and do all that stuff, but. Part of that TRS program was really about bringing people that are in our community that are leaders or entrepreneurs or business people that would help mentor these children through the process. And I really, really loved it. So now in the Meadowlands Chamber, I was just speaking with the president of the Chamber, they're looking to start a leadership of college students

James Blaine 52:17

Okay.

Michele Petilicki 52:18

are going to go through that. Now, does that really give me money today and bring something back today? Probably not, although they could probably teach me a lot about AI and social media and all

James Blaine 52:30

Yeah.

Michele Petilicki 52:30

stuff, right? but in turn, in time, it makes the more responsible people that and ultimately promoting things moving forward. So I, I think that there's, there's something that you get today

James Blaine 52:46

Right.

Michele Petilicki 52:46

something that you get long term,

James Blaine 52:49

Well,

Michele Petilicki 52:49

important to recognize those.

James Blaine 52:51

I think you've also hit upon something that's really important here. Uh, obviously no, most companies don't tip me in overnight success. One of my favorite quotes is from Big Shout out to to Ralph Casone, my father-in-law. One of my favorite Ralph quotes, and there's many, many of them, is I'm an overnight success. 20 years in the making it, everybody would, and, and it came from the fact that everyone coming, oh, Ralph, you're an overnight successful. But they didn't see the 20 years of him building the business, of him telling, you know, people saying, oh, you can't do it. You should give up. It's not gonna work out. You're not right. Now he's got, you know, his daily driver's an Escalade. He's got, you know, the nice house. He's, he's able to live a nicer life and everybody's, oh, you're an overnight success. I'm almost taking away from him in a sense, what he's done, but. You reach a point, hopefully in your business where now you have the opportunity to get back. Now you have the opportunity, like you said, to be a mentor to all of the people that are coming up to all of the people that are coming through. And I think it's also important to note, you don't necessarily have to be coming to the end of your career when you're there. You know, you could be at the point where, hey, you're 2, 3, 4 years in and somebody comes to you and says, Hey, I'm gonna start a business tomorrow. And you're able to go, well, let me tell you all the things I got wrong. Let me tell you all the. Right. I, I am and, and I'm a great example of that. Yeah. I would love to tell you, this was my first business and it went great and there was never a harsh moment. There were several other attempts and, and thankfully I had people take me under their wing. Um, but you know, when I coach my son in hockey, I tell 'em, if you're not falling, you're not learning. If you are constantly on your feet, you never fall. You're not pushing hard enough. And I think in business we have that as well. So I, I think kind of leaving off there, what do you see as the future? Where do you think the industry goes? Where do you think we go? What do you think the next five to 10 years goes? I know you and I talked before the podcast a little bit about how we, we kind of seem to agree that mixed fleet is really the direction, but are there any things there that stand out or anything that you think is, Hey, this is on the horizon?

Michele Petilicki 55:00

Well, I can, I think that there's gonna be still some more fall off

James Blaine 55:05

Yeah,

Michele Petilicki 55:06

Uh, insurance is a killer right now.

James Blaine 55:08

absolutely.

Michele Petilicki 55:09

tort reform is necessary and, uh, I hope that we see more of that, especially up in my region. Um, these fraudulent planes and, and the nuclear verdicts that the killer,

James Blaine 55:21

is brutal.

Michele Petilicki 55:21

and insurance. It, yeah, it, they need to raise their rates because they're paying out all this money, but it is putting people out of business and that's a little bit terrifying. Um, so I, I think we're gonna see of that. Uh, unless something changes,

James Blaine 55:37

Yeah.

Michele Petilicki 55:38

Maybe it's a reform reform come in and, and we'll see that shift. Um, but that's real that, I, I. you said, that mixed fleet being the transportation go-to for all transportation, I think is coming much faster now than before. And I think there was a time where there was a wave of that coming through and then it receded back where I saw a lot of limo operators trying the motor coach, um, but they couldn't quite get their expenses in

James Blaine 56:06

Yep.

Michele Petilicki 56:06

they were pulling it back out. They couldn't figure out the compliance part and they were pulling back out. Um, I see them wanting to be more involved now, and I say them because I'm not them yet, although it's gonna be a them thing soon, maybe. I don't know.

James Blaine 56:19

Yeah.

Michele Petilicki 56:20

but, but they're get, they're coming to the Motor Coach trade shows now as well and I'm seeing a lot of motor coach operators now coming to what is historically the limo chauffeur type shows. Um, so we're seeing a lot more of that crossover. And I had mentioned to you before that now I even have a, a Spader member, or it's now NCM if

James Blaine 56:39

Yeah.

Michele Petilicki 56:40

be politically correct. It's now NCM. Um, but we have someone who historically was a limo operator now in, um, what was Motor Coach group, and then we're seeing in our Motor Coach group, we have another operator that is also a limo operator. Um, and, and so

James Blaine 56:55

Yep.

Michele Petilicki 56:55

a lot more of that and how we're getting smarter about the growth of that. It's not, oh, you know, yeah, I could just bring in a bus. Sure, why not, or, yeah, sure. I'm just gonna bring in a couple

James Blaine 57:06

Yeah.

Michele Petilicki 57:06

and we gonna figure that out. Um. have nuances, right? They

James Blaine 57:11

Oh, absolutely.

Michele Petilicki 57:12

that you need to know. Uh, when you go into the motor coach side of things, understanding your expenses is paramount. Recognizing that that bus is niche, right?

James Blaine 57:22

Yep.

Michele Petilicki 57:23

tow it home with any tow operator. You can't get a repair roadside with just anybody. You, you have to go and build those relationships with specific people that are gonna help you get through that. Not to mention the compliance side is much more cumbersome on the motor coach side. There's a lot to the limo side, but when you go to the motor coach side of it, there's

James Blaine 57:42

It's. It's different. You know when, when we first launched PAX training back in 2016, it was purely in the black car industry. It was purely for limousine operators, and we launched it with one certification and some ongoing training. And then as time kind of moved on, I saw and identified that we needed to be involved kind of on the motor coach side, not because mixed fleet was a huge thing, but at that point it was the limousine operators were starting to buy and move kind of towards that side of the industry and have motor coaches. And so probably around 20 18, 20 19, I had kind of this aha moment and that aha moment was there are things that are going to carry over to every single type of operation. Now in our world, that is the safety and that's the customer service. It doesn't and, and even if you're a school bus operator, right, that changes from customer service to. Student interaction. Right. But if you are in the pass ground transportation industry, safety has gotta be paramount. And we are very firm believers that the look, there's nothing you can do right now to fight that fraud other than go the legislative route, which is gonna take longer. We've gotta get tort reform, we've gotta get these things. That was one of the things I was pushing and every conversation I had when I was on Capitol Hill was we need a task force to investigate insurance. I get, it's a state issue, but it's a national problem. The, the other side of that though. Is that you have to have fundamentals of safety and customer service and then you can build out, you know, kinda the way that we structured things was you've got your safety and you've got your customer service, and then you've got specialized courses for the chauffeur side. Then you've got specialized courses, courses for the motor coach side, but it really comes down kind of like you've already identified to knowing the nuance between them. Understanding what's unique about those areas, but also understanding the overlap and how you can take what you're already good at to use and help you expand and kind of grow. And so I think in the future we're gonna see a lot more transportation companies and we're starting to see it. Right? Um, so it used to be land right? Limo Association of New Jersey. Now they're chauffeur transportation. Um, it, and I, and we're seeing that happen in, in other companies. You know, we're seeing companies that are dropping, you know, bus or, you know, tour and they're putting transportation. And I think the other side of that, and I'd love to get your thought on this, is that we're also seeing that lead to opportunity. Because if I'm sending a SUV to take the CEO of the company and they're doing a group move, they can use my bus side. You know, if I'm doing group moves for them and they say, Hey, our CEO needs to go to the airport, and I also run that. I can do that. So I think. We're also heading towards a period of consolidation as well, where we're seeing lots of buyouts, lots of people coming out. What do you see that as being that you are one of the people, right. We're we're gonna say at this point, I think you, it's fair to say you grew up in the industry, even though started at 16. I think it's fair to say you grew up in the industry, but as one of the younger people in the industry that still got cor Yeah, of course. Um, but you've got, you are not at the point where I see you immediately exiting. Right. I think, I think you're at the point where you've taken over from dad, dad's still involved in the business. He has the opportunity to be there, but you are gonna be one of the people that helps define the future of the industry. You do have career left, you do have things. What do you see as that opportunity? What do you see as that future? Do you see that, you know, you do acquisitions, become a mixed fleet operator? Do you think that becomes a norm? What do you think that looks like? Okay.

Michele Petilicki 1:01:19

Uh, well, I'd like to hope that collaboration becomes a little bit more, um, the limo side was really good at that whole affiliate relationship,

James Blaine 1:01:28

It is a key aspect of their world,

Michele Petilicki 1:01:30

right? Motor coaches we're working on

James Blaine 1:01:32

kind of. Yeah.

Michele Petilicki 1:01:34

on it. We're getting there. Um, I think we're gonna see that expand even more.

James Blaine 1:01:38

Yep.

Michele Petilicki 1:01:38

I think we're gonna see a, a lot of that come together, uh, as far as, you know. I don't know what's gonna happen with legislative stuff. And I think that a lot of that might determine, uh, where we go. If tort reform comes into play, I think that's gonna change the whole scope of, of what

James Blaine 1:01:57

Oh, absolutely.

Michele Petilicki 1:01:57

may be and, and the operators that choose to come in or not. Uh, there's also the, the FTA rule. Um, for those that don't know, there's the charter service rule. And if you register on the FTA site, that means that transit operators in that area for whatever

James Blaine 1:02:15

Yeah.

Michele Petilicki 1:02:15

to sign up for, if a charter were to come to them, they need to kick it back to you first.

James Blaine 1:02:20

Right.

Michele Petilicki 1:02:21

if you're not signing up, well then they're not kicking it back to you. So here's my little, I just stepped on a soapbox for a second

James Blaine 1:02:27

Go.

Michele Petilicki 1:02:28

service rule. Look it up. If you have any questions, please call me. I wanna get you signed up if you're an operator. Um, okay, now I'll step back

James Blaine 1:02:35

No, no, no. Stay on that soapbox. Right? So for those of you listening, if you go to pax training.com and you go to resources and you go to our blog, one of our blog articles is how to register. Um, so it actually tells you the site to go through everything there. And then you've got Michelle to back you up. So I don't know that it gets any better than that, by the way. So we've got instructions, and then you've got someone that's been there, done that. And you're also hitting on something super crucial here. And that's I think one of the massive opportunities as we move towards mixed fleet is to take the best things of each industry, the things they've all learned and bring it across. I know when I was at the TTA event, they were talking about how they're having issues with Microt transit. Um, and for those of you don't know, micro transit is existentially. We're gonna have a smaller vehicle to try and kind of make up for the areas of the bus. Well, instead of sending a bus, we'll send that small vehicle. That's something that the smaller vehicle operators, the NEMT, the taxi operators are much better equipped to handle than having a transit authority try to figure out, roll out and do that. And so when they were talking to a representative come in, I brought that up, I said, Hey, you know, in the bus space there's protection. If there's a charter, they have to go out and see who is the private space provider that can do that instead of trying to ramp up and take that from a private provider. And so it was an aha moment of here's something the bus industry has solved. They already had the answer to that. We just need to take something similar and do it there. I, I think taking the best of all those areas is, is probably one of the easiest ways to get that. It, it sounds like, Michelle, it sounds like you are gonna be on the front line of that fight. I think, I think it's easy and fair to say that you're gonna be involved there. What, what is on the horizon for Panorama Tours? What do you guys see as kind of your next big thing, if you don't mind me asking?

Michele Petilicki 1:04:26

Oh man, I don't know. So, so it, it's funny, James, I thought that I was looking at a, a diversification of fleet

James Blaine 1:04:36

Yeah.

Michele Petilicki 1:04:37

I thought that's where I was going. Um, and then the opportunity of DECAMP came in. I was like, oh, well here's 40% growth in people and money and this and that, and okay, let's go. Um, so, so that's coming. First. I am actively looking for another property that's bigger, um, and, and my own, and who knows, maybe I'll buy a dumpster business. I dunno. I dunno. You know, it's, it's, it's one of those things that, um, I am. Always willing to listen. I'm always out there looking at the next opportunity and evaluating the next opportunity. You know, my kids are gonna be off to college in the next two years. I can't believe a year, year for my son too, for my daughter. And so I'm gonna have all this extra time on my hands

James Blaine 1:05:25

The business will be more than happy to snap that up. Yeah. The business will easily and be more than happy to take all of that free time you have from you if you let it.

Michele Petilicki 1:05:35

So, but, um, I'm just, what we've built, what my people have helped to build here has just, it's just been incredibly fun to watch. Um, and I'm constantly listening. I'm listening to them. I'm listening to what they bring back. I'm listening to my customers, you know, what do they have to say? What are they seeing? Um, I may not be the one answering the phones all the time, but when there's an opportunity, yeah, you bet. I'm taking that phone call and I'm having that conversation and I'm listening to, oh, well here are their pain points.

James Blaine 1:06:06

Yeah,

Michele Petilicki 1:06:06

Here's how Panorama can solve those pain points. And maybe I don't have that right this second, I'm gonna figure that out. I'm gonna look into what I can do. Um, I am nervous about this whole electric push,

James Blaine 1:06:18

yeah,

Michele Petilicki 1:06:18

of infrastructure for, for motor coaches specifically. Now I have a hybrid, a plugin hybrid vehicle personally, that I use. Um, and I got that set up and that was no problem. But I can't imagine setting something like that up for a fleet of buses here

James Blaine 1:06:33

yeah,

Michele Petilicki 1:06:33

in my region, where we've got blackouts and brownouts regularly just because they can't support what's happening right now. Um, and now we're gonna plug in these massive fleets that are traveling on average, what, 400 miles?

James Blaine 1:06:47

yeah. Good luck with that. In Kansas, right, we have these vast amounts of land to cover and nowhere to charge it on the way there, right? So if you can't get from point to point on a single charge can tell you right now the Midwest, that's not gonna fly.

Michele Petilicki 1:06:59

I read an article and I don't know how much truth is to this article, but they're thinking about a concept of roads. Being able to recharge the vehicles as they're driving down them. Now, it doesn't work if you're stuck in traffic,

James Blaine 1:07:11

Right.

Michele Petilicki 1:07:12

to New Jersey, but, but if you're actually driving, I, and again, I don't know how much truth or how much theory is to this particular, um, article that I read, but that would be an interesting concept that while I'm out there, I'm

James Blaine 1:07:26

It just, yeah, I think, I think there's a lot of future. I think there's a lot of things there that it comes down to, kind of like we talked about before, you've gotta make sure that the legislators understand your business. If you get to the point where they're saying, Hey, I, I read something about electric buses. I wanted to reach out and see what your thoughts are on it. Look, is that gonna happen every single time? No. But when that stuff comes up, if you're able to put your input there, it's gonna make a huge deal. Going back to what I mentioned earlier in the podcast, right? We're pushing for electric buses, but the lights in front of the capitol are humming on diesel, right? So I, I think there's a lot of things there. I think there's a lot of future. I think we're definitely gonna have to have you back onto the podcast and do another episode, because I, I don't know about you. I think we could easily do a, a entire episode on the electrification there. Um,

Michele Petilicki 1:08:17

hope I, uh, I said something that was useful for somebody out there listening.

James Blaine 1:08:22

I, I would say, I think there's a lot of takeaways here. Um, I'd again thank you for coming on. Is there any last thoughts, any last things you wanna leave them with? If they're listening?

Michele Petilicki 1:08:31

Get involved. involved. You, you have something to say. Every single person out there has something to say, and every tidbit that gets dropped in the bucket becomes bigger and better. And from that, we grow. And from that we learn. And, and without that we're not. If we stand still, we will fail.

James Blaine 1:08:49

Yeah,

Michele Petilicki 1:08:50

get involved, continue to learn and teach and put it out there.

James Blaine 1:08:55

everybody. Michelle from Panorama Amateurs. I cannot thank you enough for coming on the podcast for, for being your first podcast. I gotta say, you absolutely nailed it. You've knocked outta the park. Um, we are gonna drop some of those links in the descriptions. We're gonna make sure everybody's got what they need. So we'll have that link that we've talked about some of the other things there. Um, if you are not already, please like, subscribe, drop us a comment, let us know what you think, what you'd like to hear. And thank you everybody for listening. We'll see you guys on the next one.

Michele Petilicki 1:09:20

Thank you so much. It was a pleasure.

James Blaine 1:09:22

Oh, the pleasure is all mine. Thanks Michelle.

1:09:25

Thank you for listening to the ground transportation podcast. If you enjoyed this episode, please remember to subscribe to the show on apple, Spotify, YouTube, or wherever you get your podcasts. For more information about PAX training and to contact James, go to PAX training.com. And for more information about driving transactions and to contact Ken, Go to driving transactions.com. We'll see you next time on the ground transportation podcast.