Ken Lucci 0:24

Well, good afternoon, uh, podcast Land and welcome to another exciting episode of the Ground Transportation Podcast. I am, uh, blessed to be joined by my esteemed, uh, partner in this, in this scenario, James Blaine from PAX Training. And, and we have a special guest today. In all seriousness, a guy that is pretty much a legend in the industry because he is built a tremendous company. Um, Joe E. Mills, well, Joey Mills, uh, CEO of Olympus Car and coach Joey, tell us, tell us a little bit about yourself and tell us a little bit about this is, you know, five minute commercial on Olympus. What should we know?

Joey Mills 1:10

Sure. Well, first of all, thank you all for having me. I appreciate you, uh, inviting me out, and it's a, it's an honor and a privilege to be here. Uh, both of you guys. I respect you significantly. And, uh, as we were talking a little bit before we started, uh, these things are important for the industry, I think to

Ken Lucci 1:27

Yep.

Joey Mills 1:28

be able to not only learn, but be able to relax a little bit, um, and, uh, hear some

Ken Lucci 1:33

You are not kidding.

Joey Mills 1:34

people and know that they're not alone

Ken Lucci 1:36

Yeah. This is the highlight of my Friday. But,

James Blaine 1:39

Every Friday. one,

Ken Lucci 1:40

you owe 100% Right. That I, I love the industry and I love what we do and I love going to the conferences, but I think that continuing ed to continuing education is all about just keeping your mind moving while you've got instead of your head down, right? Every day doing the block and tackling A to B, et cetera, you're mired in your business. You know, my hope is everybody takes at least one or two nuggets out of these, and that's why, you know, having you on is, is fantastic. Uh, tell us a little bit about Olympus. What, what, what,

Joey Mills 2:14

Sure.

Ken Lucci 2:14

how did you get involved and the company's an older company.

Joey Mills 2:18

Yeah. So, um, Olympus, we're based in Knoxville, Tennessee. Um, that's kind of our headquarters, so really anywhere in East Tennessee. We also do a lot of work in the Tri-Cities area, which is Kingsport,

James Blaine 2:30

Morristown

Joey Mills 2:31

uh, Bristol area. Um. We, we are a multifaceted company, so we really have three main divisions of transportation. We have school buses, uh, we have motor coaches, and we have what people think of traditionally as the black cars,

James Blaine 2:45

Yeah.

Joey Mills 2:46

SUVs and sort of thing.

Ken Lucci 2:47

Mm-hmm.

Joey Mills 2:48

so the company was actually started in 1953. Um, our

James Blaine 2:52

Wow.

Joey Mills 2:52

company was started in 1953. Um, the company was originally started just as a school bus company, was called Gentry School Bus Lines. Um, they kind of did that for 40 years. In 1993, they bought their first motor coaches, um, so

Ken Lucci 3:10

Wow.

James Blaine 3:11

Just jumped into charter or what'd they do at that point? Joey

Ken Lucci 3:13

wait. Jumped in. Jumped in. After 40 years, they jumped in

Joey Mills 3:17

40 years, let's

James Blaine 3:18

jumping from one to another. Yeah. Mixed fleet. I.

Joey Mills 3:21

So, um, I think, and I don't know the exact numbers'cause obviously I wasn't around for that part,

James Blaine 3:27

Yeah.

Joey Mills 3:27

started with a couple, like

James Blaine 3:29

Okay.

Joey Mills 3:30

um, and then they grew it. Uh, so when we came on the scene, we came on the scene, me and my business partners, and, uh, we purchased it in November, 2019. So, you know, opportune time, five months before COVID

Ken Lucci 3:43

Whew. Wow.

James Blaine 3:46

Wow.

Joey Mills 3:46

So, so needless to

Ken Lucci 3:47

on Surviving

James Blaine 3:48

Yeah.

Joey Mills 3:49

yeah, we went from the frying pan to the fire. Absolutely.

Ken Lucci 3:53

yep.

Joey Mills 3:55

so, so that part was, uh, was challenging, but uh, when we had it, they had six motor coaches, uh, 19 school buses, and they had one SUV that the owner used as his personal transportation. It was black on black, so it fit

Ken Lucci 4:08

Sure.

Joey Mills 4:08

Right.

James Blaine 4:09

Yeah.

Joey Mills 4:10

um,

James Blaine 4:11

He didn't try and take that with the acquisition. He let you, he let you keep the black SUV.

Joey Mills 4:14

well it, you know, it, it was an interesting acquisition. Um.

Ken Lucci 4:19

As they all are.

Joey Mills 4:20

a little, yeah, I, I'll, I'll talk a little more about that as I tell you my history on it and, uh,

Ken Lucci 4:26

Mm-hmm.

Joey Mills 4:26

but, uh,

Ken Lucci 4:26

Yeah.

Joey Mills 4:27

definitely an interesting acquisition. So we grew it. Um, today we've moved to a new facility. Uh, we moved to a new facility about a year ago. Uh, we've been in it, it's about four times larger than what we were operating out of

Ken Lucci 4:41

Mm-hmm.

Joey Mills 4:41

originally. We were in the facility that we, that he operated out of.

Ken Lucci 4:45

Right.

Joey Mills 4:46

So we had to move because we'd grown. So we're at, uh, 12 motor coaches, so we've doubled the fleet. we have about 17 school buses, but actually have six additional routes than he

Ken Lucci 4:59

nice,

Joey Mills 4:59

were

Ken Lucci 5:00

nice.

Joey Mills 5:00

routes, but reduce the buses, which has

Ken Lucci 5:02

Yep.

Joey Mills 5:03

good on that side

Ken Lucci 5:04

Mm-hmm.

Joey Mills 5:04

it. Um, we have seven three sedans, and three sprinters.

James Blaine 5:09

Wow.

Ken Lucci 5:09

Wow. Wow. So, so, just, we, we don't need granularity. But from a, from a split perspective, are you one third, one third, one third, or is coach bigger than school or how is that breakdown?

Joey Mills 5:23

So re revenue wise, it's about 60 Coach, 20 school, 20 black car.

James Blaine 5:28

Okay.

Joey Mills 5:29

you, if you break it down revenue wise,

Ken Lucci 5:31

That's nice.

Joey Mills 5:32

if you break, if you break it down, man, hour wise, it's about 15 motor coach, about 40, uh, bus, and about 50 black car.

James Blaine 5:42

Okay.

Ken Lucci 5:43

Interesting, interesting.

Joey Mills 5:43

is, IM, is important for the, for the black car people that listen to understand you have to work a lot harder to make your money

Ken Lucci 5:50

Oh God, yeah. hundred

James Blaine 5:52

It's a different animal.

Ken Lucci 5:54

It's a, it's a totally different, and listen, there's a place for it because how much crossover Joey, do you have between your black car co clients that also use you for motor coach and vice versa?

Joey Mills 6:06

So it's interesting. Um, the reason, well, so I come from a back car, Blackground background obviously. Um, but we, we didn't have black car when we came here, so we

James Blaine 6:17

Yeah,

Joey Mills 6:17

went the opposite of what a co a lot of companies do. We went from a motor coach company and started a black car company

Ken Lucci 6:24

Yep,

Joey Mills 6:25

we had the motor coach

James Blaine 6:26

that, that's happening a lot more now though, Joey, I think. I think when you did it though, it wasn't common. Right? I'm starting to see that now. When you made the jump, right? I mean, we've got there. There's a couple guys that started on the limo side and came over, but it was very, very rare for them to go the other way.

Ken Lucci 6:42

yep.

Joey Mills 6:43

absolutely.

Ken Lucci 6:44

your background is such that you wanted the diversification, which is sharp, which is smart.

Joey Mills 6:50

Well, it was important for us because we were, when we bought the company, they were really struggling on the corporate side. So

Ken Lucci 6:55

Mm-hmm.

Joey Mills 6:56

work was either, uh, tours or sports,

James Blaine 6:59

Okay.

Joey Mills 6:59

so it was, they were a Thursday through Sunday company. They literally had no work Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday.

Ken Lucci 7:05

Interesting.

Joey Mills 7:06

knew we had to change the narrative on that. Um, and so obviously going into the black Garth side and breaking into the corporate world helped us grow that part of it. Um, you know, which, which helped us in the, in the long run to diversify, as you said, and get into those different market segments.

Ken Lucci 7:23

Do you do. any wedding, any private wedding stuff besides your tours? I want to talk about the tours later.

Joey Mills 7:29

well, so I have, I have a rule on weddings, um, which my staff doesn't like, but, but I learned early on it's the hardest money you'll ever make. Um. so we don't do any during what we call our peak times, which is basically anything before Memorial Day and anything after Labor Day.

James Blaine 7:48

Yeah.

Joey Mills 7:48

weddings in between, but we don't do anything in those other periods, essentially.

Ken Lucci 7:52

Gotcha.

James Blaine 7:53

Explain that though. Tell why.

Ken Lucci 7:55

to Labor Day is, is pretty much peak for wedding in that area, isn't

James Blaine 7:59

Yeah.

Joey Mills 8:00

that is, um, it starts a little bit earlier than that. Um, so James, to tell, to tell you why, to give you an idea of why, um, when you get into the large vehicle situation with weddings, um, they want'em on Saturdays

James Blaine 8:13

Yep,

Joey Mills 8:13

of course you're gonna use'em one day a week, which

Ken Lucci 8:16

Mm-hmm.

Joey Mills 8:17

of sometimes 5, 6, 5 and six day trips.

James Blaine 8:20

yep.

Joey Mills 8:21

now, now the money can be good, obviously, and, and the wedding money is good, um,

Ken Lucci 8:26

Yep.

Joey Mills 8:26

for, you know, regularly,

Ken Lucci 8:28

bride.

Joey Mills 8:29

of the day, for us it only makes sense to do it when we know we don't have the consistent five or six day trips.

James Blaine 8:36

using it for backfill, essentially.

Joey Mills 8:38

Exactly. Yeah.

Ken Lucci 8:40

Yep.

Joey Mills 8:41

maybe 5% of our business maybe.

Ken Lucci 8:45

But you're also not the lowest price in the market.

Joey Mills 8:48

Yeah. We're probably not, yeah. Yeah. That's a, that's a really good point too. We're, we're definitely not even probably in the bottom three in our

Ken Lucci 8:55

Well, that's the beauty of it. I mean, people say to me, what's the success in this business? And I can tell you, being on the top third or top 50% is key in all markets. But you know, I, I think you're doing it right. I mean, your bread and butter, how much of your coach businesses over the road, multi-day.

Joey Mills 10:11

Um, I would say 75%

Ken Lucci 10:14

Beautiful. That's gorgeous. That's gorgeous work. That's nice work.

James Blaine 10:17

Well,

Ken Lucci 10:17

Um,

Joey Mills 10:18

we, we don't do a lot of, of, uh, single day transportation unless it's our contract work with like sports teams that maybe

James Blaine 10:25

no.

Joey Mills 10:26

day trip, you know, somewhere

Ken Lucci 10:27

sure.

Joey Mills 10:27

and or if we have schools that do day field trips to, you know, couple hour locations away or something of that nature.

Ken Lucci 10:34

So how did you get into the space?

Joey Mills 10:38

So in, I was in the corporate world, um, the mid, the mid 2000 teens, um, got outta the corporate world and actually went to drive for Gold Shield in Lexington, uh,

Ken Lucci 10:50

you go. Good company.

James Blaine 10:52

Yep. The Doyles.

Joey Mills 10:53

a

Ken Lucci 10:53

Yep.

Joey Mills 10:54

fantastic company. George Doyle is one of the greatest human you'll ever meet anywhere, anytime.

James Blaine 11:00

Love George. Shout out to George.

Ken Lucci 11:02

Yep. Yep, yep.

Joey Mills 11:04

Le learned so much from him, learned so much about not just how to run a business, but also how to, how to be a good human.

Ken Lucci 11:12

Mm-hmm.

Joey Mills 11:12

which is something that doesn't always happen in this business as you

Ken Lucci 11:16

In this business. Joey, stop it.

James Blaine 11:18

I.

Ken Lucci 11:18

it. You mean there are scoundrels in this business, Joey?

Joey Mills 11:23

um, so George, George taught me, taught me essentially everything about transportation. And

Ken Lucci 11:29

Yeah.

Joey Mills 11:30

the reason that, that I ended up in Knoxville, honestly, was because of George. And, uh, we actually in 2015, I think, or 16, I can't remember the exact year, actually looked at buying Gentry, um, at Gold Shield so that they, they were actually had the appetite to try to expand their markets.

Ken Lucci 11:49

Mm-hmm.

Joey Mills 11:49

uh, we ended up not doing the purchase at that time, basically because of, um. School buses won. They didn't have any experience with school buses and they didn't want to get into it. And two, owner of Gentry at the time really wasn't ready to sell. He

Ken Lucci 12:05

Mm-hmm.

Joey Mills 12:06

wasn't ready to get out. He thought he was, but his price was way too high. And,

James Blaine 12:10

I, I feel like Ken's never dealt with that. Ken, you never deal with that, do you?

Ken Lucci 12:14

Joey, say that again. I'm sorry.

Joey Mills 12:17

And, and that's the thing is the pri their prices are always too high. Right. The seller, it always is way too high, but

Ken Lucci 12:23

And, and you know Joey. You and I, you And I, I, I have no, idea where these numbers come from. But, and, and I don't know where they think that that price makes sense for anybody. When does the buyer start making money on the purchase? 15 years from now.

Joey Mills 12:42

Yeah.

Ken Lucci 12:42

So what ma, what, how, how did you succeed with Gentry then?

Joey Mills 12:49

So I think the first thing we did was, um, get. The expenses under control. Um, so the expenses were, you know, very high in a lot of different places. And probably the second biggest thing was we diversified the revenue streams pretty quickly,

Ken Lucci 13:07

There you go.

Joey Mills 13:08

is where the tours came in,

Ken Lucci 13:10

There you go.

Joey Mills 13:11

they weren't doing any of those really. Um, so we, we kind of found the path to least resistance to be able to produce the income the quickest.

Ken Lucci 13:19

you know, none, everybody can do the tours. Tell us how that, how, how that, how did you get started with that?

Joey Mills 13:26

so, you know, it's interesting. The tours are, are an animal within themselves, of course. Um, they're,

Ken Lucci 13:32

Oh yeah.

Joey Mills 13:32

they're, they're, they're very, they're very unique. Um, and really we, we classify'em into three types of tours, right? So our, our probably most popular and least path to resistance tour are what we call whirlwinds, some people in the business refer to as red eyes. Which is essentially you pick somebody up at, in our case, I'll give you our example. We're in Knoxville, so our most popular whirlwind Red Eye New York City. So we pick up people on Friday at 6:00 PM drive'em to New York City overnight, drop'em off at 8:00 AM in the morning. Um, they stay there until eight, 9:00 PM at night, back on the bus and we bring them back home.

Ken Lucci 14:15

Unbelievable.

Joey Mills 14:16

it's amazing. I mean,

Ken Lucci 14:18

How many of those do you do a year?

Joey Mills 14:20

um, uh, per year, we're probably about 18 now, and

Ken Lucci 14:26

That's

Joey Mills 14:26

half of half of those are in December. Uh, December. It's like you can,

Ken Lucci 14:31

nice.

Joey Mills 14:31

know, you could, I, I could probably do in December if I had the equipment and the drivers and you know, people that wanted to do it. So, as you can imagine with that. of schedule. It's very difficult on the drivers. The drivers struggle

James Blaine 14:47

many hours is that, Joey? To get to New York City from Knoxville? For those that don't know. Okay.

Joey Mills 14:52

we, we do a driver switch. So it's, it's actually only about 10 hours from, uh, from Knoxville,

Ken Lucci 14:58

Mm-hmm.

Joey Mills 14:59

about three hours in. So

James Blaine 15:00

Okay.

Joey Mills 15:01

the overnight drivers, they drive about seven hours in

Ken Lucci 15:04

Mm-hmm.

James Blaine 15:05

Yeah. Well, within the 10 hour limit?

Joey Mills 15:07

yeah, so

James Blaine 15:08

Yeah.

Joey Mills 15:08

hours is legal, but it's, it's a hard drive because they're

James Blaine 15:11

Anything at all?

Joey Mills 15:12

this,

Ken Lucci 15:14

Hmm.

Joey Mills 15:14

well, safety's the most important thing, and I, I tell that, tell people that all the time. Look, you know, um, we're never gonna take a trip that's gonna endanger our company, or we're never gonna put somebody in a situation that endangers our company. No

James Blaine 15:27

No.

Joey Mills 15:27

worth it. No one client's worth it.

James Blaine 15:30

No.

Joey Mills 15:30

just

Ken Lucci 15:31

But you are pricing your pricing a way that you're profitable. So you can do the switch, you can, you can do the chase, you do it. with a, do you do it with, how do you do? Do you do it with a chase car or do you do it?

Joey Mills 15:43

Yeah, so we, uh, so what we do is the drivers that are gonna do the overnight on Friday,

Ken Lucci 15:48

Mm-hmm.

Joey Mills 15:48

they actually go up on Thursday to the location that's three

James Blaine 15:51

Yeah.

Joey Mills 15:52

So

Ken Lucci 15:53

Yep.

Joey Mills 15:53

they're there the day before and they can also sleep all day, or, you know, try to get

James Blaine 15:57

Yeah.

Joey Mills 15:57

into a schedule where they know they can be up all night. Um, they, they, we drive the bus there. Then the driver that drives it on Friday will typically come back since it's only three hours away in that instance, in that

Ken Lucci 16:10

yep. Yep.

Joey Mills 16:11

the, then they'll go back up on Saturday morning at like four 30 to pick up, you know, to pick up the bus that's returning back to

Ken Lucci 16:19

there's a lot of choreographing of this, but it gets, it becomes muscle memory after you do it a few times.

Joey Mills 16:28

Yeah. And, and what you do is you really find out the best one, one of the most, you know, when you sent me your list of questions, we're gonna talk about, I, one of the things on the challenges that I said is one of the hardest things on the tours is fig figuring out where to switch,

James Blaine 16:42

Yeah,

Joey Mills 16:43

switch the bus drivers at. Now

Ken Lucci 16:45

Yep.

Joey Mills 16:45

is great, right? If you got a Bucky's anywhere within,

James Blaine 16:48

well, you turn'em loose and they have the time of their lives in there, right? The passengers are excited about that. More to than the destination.

Ken Lucci 16:54

a minute. For those, for those people that perhaps are not, that don't know what, tell us what Bucky's is.

Joey Mills 17:01

So Buck Bucky's is, I call it the Disney World of gas stations.

James Blaine 17:05

Accurate, a hundred percent.

Joey Mills 17:07

yeah, you can, you can get whatever you want from, from anything in the world, food wise, um, whatever. You can get it. And it's great for us because. Provides a great distraction for the clients while you're switching drivers, you know, making sure that the driver coming aboard can, you know, get comfortable, get their pre-trip done, look over things, and then to the passengers it's seamless.

James Blaine 17:31

Well, and there's something to be said about that, Joey, because a lot of people look at the regulations. They say, I got 10 driving hours. Right. He's only gonna have eight hours off. I, I think there's something really important to be said here, especially in the world now, where drivers are harder to come by when you are doing things.

Joey Mills 17:49

we, we require nine

James Blaine 17:51

Okay?

Joey Mills 17:52

of multi-day trip, nine hours

Ken Lucci 17:53

Yep.

James Blaine 17:54

Yep. That's a good policy.

Joey Mills 17:55

which is still not enough in most cases, to be

Ken Lucci 17:58

Right,

Joey Mills 17:59

Um,

Ken Lucci 17:59

right.

Joey Mills 18:00

because it, it takes people longer than an hour to wind down and get themself in a comfortable, you know,

Ken Lucci 18:05

Sure.

Joey Mills 18:06

And,

James Blaine 18:07

Well, you gotta check into the hotel. You gotta get to the hotel, you gotta have dinner. You got, I mean, a lot of people don't realize that, hey, it's not eight hours in bed. That's eight hours off, so you probably need nine, 10 hours just to get there.

Joey Mills 18:21

we went to

Ken Lucci 18:21

so

Joey Mills 18:22

years ago, especially on student type tours because,

Ken Lucci 18:25

a hundred

James Blaine 18:26

Oh yeah.

Joey Mills 18:26

tours, they, they, they wanna push it to the minute, you know, they, they want you to drop'em off at 10 30 and be back ready to go at 6:30 AM

James Blaine 18:34

Yep.

Ken Lucci 18:34

Joey,

Joey Mills 18:35

they operate.

Ken Lucci 18:36

do you work with any tour providers, meaning as a subcontractor, or are these all your own tours?

Joey Mills 18:44

Um, so we do both, um, you know,

Ken Lucci 18:47

Interesting.

Joey Mills 18:47

probab, the, the split on that's probably about 60 40

James Blaine 18:51

Yeah.

Joey Mills 18:52

versus, versus working for, for other folks. Um.

Ken Lucci 18:55

Give us the pros and cons.

Joey Mills 18:59

So obviously the pros of having it as your own is you have more flexibility,

James Blaine 19:03

Yeah.

Ken Lucci 19:03

Mm-hmm.

Joey Mills 19:04

you, you know, if you screw up, it's not quite as bad.

Ken Lucci 19:08

Mm-hmm.

Joey Mills 19:08

on the bus that can,

James Blaine 19:10

Handle it.

Joey Mills 19:11

and, and talk to the person. You know, all of our tours have a host, we call'em tour host. So we have somebody that travels with the bus you know,

Ken Lucci 19:19

Can I be, can I apply for that? Can I apply for that? I,

Joey Mills 19:22

Absolutely.

Ken Lucci 19:22

that.

Joey Mills 19:23

We need them. It's one of our

Ken Lucci 19:24

Okay.

Joey Mills 19:25

is finding them. I actually wrote

James Blaine 19:26

Oh.

Joey Mills 19:27

as

Ken Lucci 19:27

No kidding.

Joey Mills 19:27

is one of our, One of our biggest challenges. um,

Ken Lucci 19:31

talk about the driver on the tours. is that also a challenge or, or do the drivers like'em?

Joey Mills 19:38

the, the, the whirlwind and the red eye is the

James Blaine 19:41

Oh

Joey Mills 19:42

The

Ken Lucci 19:42

Mm-hmm.

Joey Mills 19:42

tours, day trips or multi-day tours, the drivers love them because they're some of the easiest trips, right? Because you're

Ken Lucci 19:49

Sure.

Joey Mills 19:50

everywhere you're going is going to be bus friendly

James Blaine 19:53

yeah.

Joey Mills 19:53

part, right? Because it's gonna be larger tourist attractions, so they cater to buses, so the driving's easier. Um, most motor coach operators, um, would prefer to drive tours as opposed to sports teams or, you know, corporate or, or, um, retail type business just because it's something, one, they know it like,

James Blaine 20:18

To go.

Joey Mills 20:18

you go to Washington DC they know all the places are gonna go, right? They

James Blaine 20:21

Yep.

Joey Mills 20:22

we're dropping off here and there and everywhere else, and it's simple. For'em, it's muscle memory.

Ken Lucci 20:27

So give us, I interrupted you, but give us the benefits of your own versus the tour company. The tour company kind of hands you a manifest, right?

Joey Mills 20:36

Yeah, so, so the tour company, of course, there's no planning,

Ken Lucci 20:39

Mm-hmm.

Joey Mills 20:40

is great, right? You got somebody else doing it all. So you're just, you're, you're getting a piece of paper and they're like, take me here, here and here, and that's where you're going. Um, so you don't have a lot of the backend work that goes into that. you, you obviously don't have to have a host on the bus because

James Blaine 20:56

Yeah,

Joey Mills 20:57

that's renting it for you

James Blaine 20:58

they've got their own. Yeah.

Joey Mills 21:00

they have somebody on their own. Um, I think the other thing it does for us, uh, from a benefit standpoint is I think it actually helps our drivers

Ken Lucci 21:13

Mm-hmm.

Joey Mills 21:14

for us, because it'll, they'll see that we're more organized than others are.

Ken Lucci 21:18

Mm-hmm.

Joey Mills 21:19

as you all know, drivers are sometimes fickle and have complaints and, you know, can't, can't be satisfied, but they're like, oh, well we do it better than them, so maybe it, maybe our people are good,

James Blaine 21:30

Well, but,

Joey Mills 21:31

do have it together.

Ken Lucci 21:32

Maybe the grass isn't greener another place.

Joey Mills 21:36

Exactly. Yeah.

Ken Lucci 21:37

Yeah.

Joey Mills 21:37

so I think a, a lot, I think that's a hidden benefit

James Blaine 21:41

Yeah.

Joey Mills 21:41

don't necessarily

James Blaine 21:42

But but it comes down to process, right? And that goes right back to what you said about the Buckys and about sending'em out there. And it's something that hell, I preach at, at pacs to anybody that'll listen. The more you have process, the more you have planning, the more you have a list, the more you have something you're doing. Right? The big thing you mentioned there is our drivers get to see haphazard versus we have a system, we have it laid out, we ha we know what we're doing and they get to see that firsthand and it helps you. So that's a huge part of it, Joey.

Ken Lucci 23:18

so, talk to us about challenges are you seeing organizing your own tours? What's challenging about that aspect? And compare you, you obviously have to have, do you have, do you have spec tour specialists, tour specialists inside that design these tours? Or what, what did you start, when you started doing your, your own tours, what did that look like?

Joey Mills 23:45

Yeah, so I have a,

Ken Lucci 23:46

I

Joey Mills 23:46

have a main person that, that devises all of our tours, so kind of our timeline on tours and how we do things. start planning for, um, so for example, 2026, we start planning in March of 25 for 2026. So our, our first, we have a weekly sales meeting, of which we discuss tours every week. We discuss other things, but that's always a major part of it. And then that, so our first sales meeting in March, we talk about the tours, what worked in the past, do we wanna repeat a tour?

James Blaine 24:20

No.

Joey Mills 24:20

we not do a tour last year that we did in 24? That we, you know, that we didn't put on in 25, but it sold well in 24. You know, should we do it again? So that's kind of the preliminary discussion, right? Of, and, and that's a group of four people.

James Blaine 24:34

No,

Joey Mills 24:34

and, and what I would say three salespeople. Um, and one is the main tour salesperson, and then the other two are inside sales and one's outside sales essentially.

Ken Lucci 24:44

Mm-hmm.

Joey Mills 24:45

so we kind of all talk about it, go from there. And then in probably mid-April we've discussed that through and decided what our 2026 tours are gonna look like. So then we start putting together pricing from if they're multi-day

James Blaine 25:00

no.

Joey Mills 25:01

day and we're providing attractions or we're providing food, or we're providing hotels, what do those costs look like? Um, you know, we try to have'em ready for the release the Monday after the 4th of July, for the following year. That's, that's always our

Ken Lucci 25:18

Wow. Talk about pre-planning. That's great.

Joey Mills 25:22

we didn't get'em released until after Labor Day.

Ken Lucci 25:25

Okay,

Joey Mills 25:25

we still, we, we had some glitches. We released like our whirlwinds because as I said earlier, those, those are the path to the least resistance. All you're

Ken Lucci 25:35

sure.

Joey Mills 25:35

a bus seat,

James Blaine 25:36

Right.

Ken Lucci 25:36

Yep.

Joey Mills 25:37

it doesn't, doesn't take a lot of planning necessarily. Uh,

Ken Lucci 25:41

Right. Where do you, where do you drop off in New York, by the way?

Joey Mills 25:45

uh, we actually drop off at the public library.

Ken Lucci 25:48

Nice.

Joey Mills 25:49

people drop off at Port Authority. we do the library because we try to tell everybody we're leaving at eight, but we don't

Ken Lucci 25:56

Yep.

Joey Mills 25:56

until eight 30

Ken Lucci 25:58

Good idea.

Joey Mills 25:59

you well know in New York, you can't just sit anywhere without somebody creating havoc for you.

James Blaine 26:05

Well, and explain that for a second. So anybody that hadn't dealt with New York, you know, they might hear, you can't sit. Tell us what you mean by that. What exactly happens when you sit with a running bus in New York?

Joey Mills 26:14

So, so for one, you cannot idle in New York, even

James Blaine 26:18

Nope. Yeah.

Joey Mills 26:20

is, you know, very, um, as,

James Blaine 26:22

they get paid to report it. Yep.

Joey Mills 26:24

yeah, as you guys know, they actually have folks out there that, that will record you and they get paid to turn you in.

James Blaine 26:30

They get a cut of the fine.

Ken Lucci 26:31

Are you kidding? Matt Dawes is fighting those damn things all the time for a ton of my customers. Yep.

Joey Mills 26:37

day, every day.

Ken Lucci 26:38

Yep. Yep.

Joey Mills 26:39

Um, but the public library, provi, they have a great outdoor seating area and

Ken Lucci 26:44

Mm-hmm.

Joey Mills 26:44

has those steps leading up to it, of course. So a lot of people hang out there and do last minute pictures. And, of course you gotta also understand people have literally almost been awake now for 30 hours,

Ken Lucci 26:58

Wow.

Joey Mills 26:59

right. So, so they're, they're just, they're really ready for the bus to come back at

James Blaine 27:03

Yeah.

Joey Mills 27:04

Um.

Ken Lucci 27:05

Mm-hmm.

Joey Mills 27:07

that's, that's the reason we do'em that way. Um, but I think back to the question about the, the, the planning. I think the most important thing is, is to try to plan something that you think the area around you is going to, to want to go and appreciate. Um,

Ken Lucci 27:25

other words, the demographic

James Blaine 27:27

Yeah.

Ken Lucci 27:27

people you serve, where are they gonna want to go? O.

James Blaine 27:31

Well, and Joey, talk about how you find that too, because you know, you've got marketplace, you got a lot of events. How do you, how do you find those locations and then how do you figure out if the demographic's gonna go for it?

Joey Mills 27:43

well, I think part of it's experience, right?

James Blaine 27:46

Yeah,

Joey Mills 27:46

you, you've, you've, you've

James Blaine 27:48

get to know'em.

Joey Mills 27:48

you've tried it and it worked.

James Blaine 27:50

Yeah.

Joey Mills 27:51

I think the other part of it is you just pay attention to where people take vacations.

James Blaine 27:55

Yeah,

Ken Lucci 27:55

Oh, sure. Yeah.

Joey Mills 27:57

it's, it's not difficult to, to find those numbers to see, okay, people, one good place is airlines. Where, where do, where do airlines at your local airport, especially if you're a smaller airport like Knoxville, where are

Ken Lucci 28:09

Yep,

Joey Mills 28:09

destinations from your airport?

James Blaine 28:11

That's a great tip. Yeah.

Joey Mills 28:13

you know, gonna be some of your most popular travel destinations are those direct flights, because obviously the airlines are saying, okay, we have the demand to go Gulf Shores or wherever it

James Blaine 28:23

And they're putting a lot of money into research too, right? I mean, the advantage you have there, that's, that's, you know, one of my favorite tricks was if I ever wanna know where the affluent parts of a city are and I wanna stop in, I start looking at things like Costco, right? Because you have, these companies will spend millions of dollars to figure this out and we can literally just go look at what they're doing and use it to inform us it Absolutely.

Ken Lucci 28:45

airlines track a ton of data. And

James Blaine 28:47

Yeah.

Ken Lucci 28:47

what everybody thinks, airlines are not incredibly profitable. They have to micromanage their revenue.

James Blaine 28:53

Yeah.

Ken Lucci 28:54

Um, so you, all right, so you do the, the, the red eyes and the whirlwinds to New York. Where else do you take the red eyes and the whirlwinds DC

Joey Mills 29:02

we do, so we, we do Disney, um,

Ken Lucci 29:06

Nice, right?

Joey Mills 29:07

Um, we do, we do actually, we do a few to Washington dc especially in the springtime for the cherry blossoms.

James Blaine 29:15

Yep.

Joey Mills 29:15

of the big times to go there. People love, love to see the flowers and so forth. Um, we do, Chicago is one of our more popular ones. Um, we do any variety of beaches. We do Panama City, Gulf Shores. People literally just want to go spend a day on the beach.

James Blaine 29:32

Yep.

Joey Mills 29:33

and it's simple and easy for'em, right?

Ken Lucci 29:35

Right.

Joey Mills 29:36

really cheap Transportation. We charge$250 a seat.

Ken Lucci 29:41

Wow,

James Blaine 29:41

Round trip or one way.

Joey Mills 29:43

That's round trip.

James Blaine 29:44

Yeah.

Ken Lucci 29:45

trip,

James Blaine 29:46

Yeah. That's.

Joey Mills 29:48

so

Ken Lucci 29:48

know.

Joey Mills 29:49

that's cheap transportation. Um,

Ken Lucci 29:51

Logistically, how challenging is it? Are you, are you taking all these reservations manually? Do you, do you, do you, do you have a, software program to do this?

Joey Mills 30:01

um,

Ken Lucci 30:02

you get efficient at doing it? Yeah.

Joey Mills 30:04

yeah, we, we have a software program. It's called Go Travel Odyssey. Um, it's, it's a decent program. Of course there's several out there.

James Blaine 30:11

Oh yeah.

Ken Lucci 30:12

Yep.

Joey Mills 30:12

you to book by the seat. Um, you know, we, we felt

Ken Lucci 30:15

That's the key.

Joey Mills 30:16

with that one and the one we went with. Um, know, I think one of the things not to overlook on tours that I think is important is I, I think as business owners too, we have a corporate responsibility to let people see things that they might not see otherwise. And I see that a little bit with like our whirlwinds,

James Blaine 30:35

Talk. Talk about that. What? What wouldn't they see otherwise? What do you mean?

Ken Lucci 30:38

do you mean by that?

Joey Mills 30:39

So, so in my opinion, the average, let's say lower to middle class person that lives in East Tennessee,

James Blaine 30:45

Yeah.

Joey Mills 30:45

they would never have an opportunity to see New York City. They

James Blaine 30:49

Oh, yeah,

Joey Mills 30:49

an opportunity to experience that culture. Right. you're giving'em a pretty easy, you know, not many hurdles to jump over. Ability to go spend 12 hours in a city that they would never have access to otherwise

James Blaine 31:03

yeah,

Ken Lucci 31:03

have photos, they'll have memories. They'll take pictures in front of that. They, they just, don't have access to.

James Blaine 31:10

yeah.

Joey Mills 31:10

yeah, for, for 500 bucks, right. Which is, which is not an insignificant amount of money,

Ken Lucci 31:15

Mm-hmm.

Joey Mills 31:16

to what they would have to spend otherwise. It's definitely something that's reasonable.

James Blaine 31:21

But look, if, if you start looking at flights right now, right? Unless you get a bare bones flight, that's just your body on a plane. That's about as close as you're gonna get to the two 50. Even Southwest they've rolled back, right? Southwest now wants to charge you for bags. Thank God I'm a list, right? I still get my bag. But, but seriously, I mean, it's, it's getting to the point where that's becoming increasingly more difficult. The other side of that is you gotta deal with TSA, you gotta deal with the airports, you gotta deal with everything there. Getting back it and forth for these guys to be able to come. Yeah. You come, you get on the bus, you go there, you come back. I mean, you're giving these people opportunities they might not have otherwise.

Ken Lucci 31:59

reminds me, where do you pick him up in a parking lot. Where do do you? Yeah.

Joey Mills 32:04

we, we have, we have two partner locations in, in Knoxville that we pick up at, and then we actually have a couple of partner locations along the route

Ken Lucci 32:13

Nice.

Joey Mills 32:13

we'll pick up at. So we're going to New York City, they're obviously gonna be east.

James Blaine 32:18

Yep.

Joey Mills 32:19

so, you know, we, we stop at, we stop in Bristol and pick up, um, then

Ken Lucci 32:22

Yep. Mm-hmm.

Joey Mills 32:26

director of events, which she's my main tour person. She's actually from, from that area. So we actually have some clients there because of her. So it makes sense that, you know, we stop there. And that's also where we do our driver switch.

James Blaine 32:40

Yeah.

Joey Mills 32:40

kind of a easy place for people to come to. But, but our locations here, our Cracker Barrel, we have a Cracker Barrel. They lack it because when they get back on

James Blaine 32:49

Pay.

Joey Mills 32:50

a lot of the people that gets off our bus will go into the restaurant and eat.

James Blaine 32:53

Yep.

Ken Lucci 32:54

And does Cracker Barrel charge you for parking?

Joey Mills 32:57

they do not, uh, the only time we're not allowed to park at Cracker Barrels in December,'cause that's one

Ken Lucci 33:02

Sure,

James Blaine 33:03

Yeah.

Ken Lucci 33:03

Sure, sure.

Joey Mills 33:05

we're not able to park there. But then, but the other 11 months, they have no, no issue, no charge, you know?

James Blaine 33:10

Well, they're making money off the people you're bringing.

Ken Lucci 33:13

oh god, yeah. It,

James Blaine 33:15

Yeah.

Ken Lucci 33:15

like the proverbial gift shop after the theater. Right

James Blaine 33:18

Exit through the gift shop.

Ken Lucci 33:20

right. yeah. So, so what's the most challenging on the tour side of your business? I.

Joey Mills 33:28

Um, I would say the most challenging is probably the planning and picking out the right locations

Ken Lucci 33:37

Yep.

James Blaine 33:38

How quick do you act something if you don't think it's right? Like if you find it, Hey, we got a tour and it's hurting. How long do you let it kinda limp on before you exit?

Joey Mills 33:47

so, so it's interesting what the first year we did this,

James Blaine 33:50

Okay.

Joey Mills 33:51

to kind of give you guys an idea. When I came and, and purchased Gentry and, and transitioned to Olympus,

James Blaine 33:57

Huh?

Joey Mills 33:57

the first year we did about$70,000 in tour business,

James Blaine 34:01

Okay.

Joey Mills 34:01

just starting. And that's kinda like all we did.

James Blaine 34:04

Yeah.

Joey Mills 34:05

Um, that would, I would really classify that as 2022.

Ken Lucci 34:09

Mm-hmm.

Joey Mills 34:10

some in 21, it was very limited because of COVID. We

James Blaine 34:13

Yeah. It hadn't come back yet.

Joey Mills 34:16

yeah, until the first part of 21. So in 23 we did about 350,000. Now, 2022 was we, we lost money. Obviously you can't run, but, but

James Blaine 34:29

No way.

Joey Mills 34:30

any tours. We went, I mean, I took, people took one group of to New Orleans with five people on a motor coach.

James Blaine 34:36

Wow.

Joey Mills 34:37

and I didn't wanna do it with, with, in a smaller vehicle like a sprinter or something, because I wanted them to have the motor coach experience,

James Blaine 34:44

Yeah.

Joey Mills 34:45

uh,

Ken Lucci 34:45

yeah, yeah, yeah.

Joey Mills 34:47

so kind of made that, that decision the first year it was gonna be marketing

James Blaine 34:51

Yeah.

Joey Mills 34:51

nothing else.

James Blaine 34:53

Loss leader basically.

Joey Mills 34:54

we did, last year we did about 600,000 and we're on pace this year to do about eight 50

James Blaine 35:00

Congrats.

Joey Mills 35:01

the tour side.

Ken Lucci 35:01

with that at all. And, and, and the thing is, it's, you control what, who, and when control, you really do control the profitability because once you've done one tour, I, I imagine the pro forma for that specific tour, you know, your costs almost down to the penny.

Joey Mills 35:22

Absolutely. Um, you know, obviously you're always gonna have some miscellaneous things that pop up, but, but at

Ken Lucci 35:27

Sure.

Joey Mills 35:28

you, you pretty much know your profit margin from the beginning. know, your break even, it's roughly 28 people. You really should be pricing your break even at 28 people. Um,

Ken Lucci 35:38

Nice.

Joey Mills 35:39

person beyond 20 eights pure

James Blaine 35:41

Is profit.

Ken Lucci 35:42

N nothing wrong with that.

Joey Mills 35:44

and, now that's, that's on the multiday and the single days on the whirlwind, obviously it's more like 10 people are breakeven

James Blaine 35:52

Wow.

Joey Mills 35:53

it is pure

Ken Lucci 35:53

So how do you market to, how do you market these tours? How do you get the word out?

Joey Mills 35:58

of our marketing is Facebook. Um,

Ken Lucci 36:00

Yeah.

Joey Mills 36:01

um,

Ken Lucci 36:02

What, what,

Joey Mills 36:02

we we're up

Ken Lucci 36:03

you mean to tell me that you are just not complaining about the political establishment like everybody else? I see you're actually making money through posting on Facebook.

Joey Mills 36:12

Oh yeah, Facebook is awesome. I'll say Facebook and, and it's funny because you're, you kid about

Ken Lucci 36:18

I,

Joey Mills 36:18

you, but it is the reality of what people wanna do, right? and

James Blaine 36:23

ads, is this like regular post videos? I mean, you know, every, everybody right now pay-per-click. Pay-per-click. But you know how, and, and obviously don't give us the secret herbs and spices, but you know, is that, are you putting a ton of money into that or are you putting effort into that?

Joey Mills 36:40

No, so, so the beauty for me is I can't even tell you how it's done because I don't wanna know. I'm one of these people that says, you know, I just wanna know what it tastes like. I don't know.

James Blaine 36:48

Yeah.

Joey Mills 36:48

care what goes in it.

Ken Lucci 36:50

Yep.

Joey Mills 36:50

so, you know, we, we have a marketing company, uh, that, that we hired, um, in 2021 to kinda rebrand us as Olympus, because obviously we bought Gentry. So that was the

Ken Lucci 37:01

yep,

Joey Mills 37:02

And

Ken Lucci 37:03

yep.

Joey Mills 37:03

in charge of our social media. You know, they're, they're the former makeup of Curtis. Gabriel, I don't know what their current

Ken Lucci 37:10

Conversion. Conversion.

Joey Mills 37:12

Yeah.

Ken Lucci 37:13

Yep. Yep.

Joey Mills 37:15

So they've been great. Um, they've been wonderful to work with. Um, obviously they're, they're from England, so we had a little bit, so that's a funny story. We had a little bit of a hiccup when we first started.

James Blaine 37:28

Uh oh.

Joey Mills 37:29

'em to market, to market to identify us to our region. Right? You

James Blaine 37:33

Yep.

Joey Mills 37:33

have been to East Tennessee, so you know what East Tennessee region is made up of.

Ken Lucci 37:36

Yes

James Blaine 37:37

are you, are you tell me they had a English accent broadcasting your ads out there.

Joey Mills 37:42

not, not, not necessarily the accident, but they sent us a, they sent us a video to release with an Arab driver,

James Blaine 37:49

Okay.

Joey Mills 37:49

like.

Ken Lucci 37:50

Uh,

Joey Mills 37:51

that's, that's not gonna work for us.

James Blaine 37:53

Well it's no in your market.

Joey Mills 37:55

Yeah. Yeah. It's

James Blaine 37:56

Yeah,

Joey Mills 37:56

So, but, but I mean, they've been great. They've

James Blaine 37:59

yeah,

Joey Mills 37:59

us. Um, you know, some people, I think, and, and this comes through my conversations with people in the industry and, and like 20 group I'm in and whatnot, you know, some people have been dissatisfied with it, but I think it's like anything, it, it, you gotta define the goal

James Blaine 38:16

yeah.

Joey Mills 38:16

of it, and then you gotta manage toward that goal. so I think a lot of people, like with any marketing agency, just like say, oh, I'm hiring you, make me look good. Well,

Ken Lucci 38:26

Well, and you you

James Blaine 38:28

You gotta put the effort in.

Ken Lucci 38:29

something. You, you just hit upon something because I, I, Simon Curtis is one of my favorite people. I talk to him all the time now that he is part of convergence. You know, truth be told, I kind of helped him with that deal when he did his, when he did that, um, acquisition, or excuse me, when they acquired him. I hear the same thing about, about Mark Petri and any other digital marketing company that's in the space. I hear fantastics and reviews and then I hear some so sos and I'm with you. I think if you expect to just write a check and that's your involvement, it's not, No. matter who it is, it's not gonna work for you.

Joey Mills 39:07

Never gonna work. Yeah. it's

Ken Lucci 39:09

Yep.

Joey Mills 39:09

gonna work. And, and that's what I get out of people when they come to me and they're like, now you always talk great about'em, but we've had this, this, and this. And I'm like, okay, are you talking to them regularly? Are you

James Blaine 39:19

Yeah.

Joey Mills 39:20

them what you're looking for? Are you telling

Ken Lucci 39:21

Right.

Joey Mills 39:22

this is what I want out of it in the long run, you

James Blaine 39:24

Well, and that, I think that's every vendor, right? Because to a certain extent, and it, and it happens to me with vendors that aren't even a part of this industry and what we do, I think one of the things that people forget is. Getting a vendor is a little bit like hiring. You have to have a culture fit, you have to have a partnership type relationship. Look, there's people out there that would probably tell you, Hey, you know, we, we tried Pax and it didn't work. And I can tell you right now, I've had people come to us, not put anybody on it, not do anybody with it, and then go, well, we thought we were gonna buy it, it would magically work. Now that said, are we for everyone? No. Uh, my goal is to work with people in top percent, but I can tell you right now, I have vendors that I use where it's not a culture fit or we're not this, you know what I mean? It's, you gotta find people that fit with what you're trying to do and you gotta work together. Oh, absolutely. More so there.

Ken Lucci 40:12

and listen, we can pick a dozen. A dozen companies and people that have, have been through this industry, you know, I'll just call it waving a hundred dollars bill through a trailer park, meaning they just slip

James Blaine 40:24

Brutal. Brutal.

Ken Lucci 40:26

They take out, they take out a few hundred thousand dollars and they do nothing.

James Blaine 40:30

Yeah.

Ken Lucci 40:30

But, but, but, but I, I will share with you all right, Joey, he, they've got some very sticky clients, some great clients that love them, and with digital marketing and SEO and PPC, it's, It is, the devil is in the detail. It is tracking return on investment. It is what is our goal and objective of this, and none of it is magic. It, it takes a lot of work. But listen, in your case, the proof is in the pudding because that's one of the primary ways that you generate tour business. Correct? That's it. Yep.

James Blaine 41:04

Yeah.

Joey Mills 41:05

and, and I think other business, I think we've had a bleed over our tour business has, has bled over into, so I can, I can give you an example. We have a local college in town that, um. The sports, the admin for the sports department went on a whirlwind with us

Ken Lucci 41:24

No shit.

Joey Mills 41:25

Right. Um, so she comes back, talks about how nice I equipment was, how great the experience was, so forth and so on. calls, she's like, she called me directly, they gave her my direct number, which is

James Blaine 41:39

Yeah.

Joey Mills 41:39

I

Ken Lucci 41:39

Mm-hmm.

Joey Mills 41:40

call. Right? And they're like, she's like, Hey, would you like to bid on our sports contract? You know, your equipment's

Ken Lucci 41:45

Nice,

Joey Mills 41:46

You know, we're

Ken Lucci 41:46

nice.

Joey Mills 41:47

looking for new vendors. Would you like to bid? into a$675,000 annual contract

James Blaine 41:53

Wow.

Ken Lucci 41:54

Listen, you know, you know, it's, it's, uh, funny. This is why I wanted to have you on, because I, I, I know your personality and your extremely positive, and you're also analytical about your numbers. I, do you agree with this statement that the, the people that whose businesses are down it, it's, it's more their mindset than their marketplace.

Joey Mills 42:18

Yeah, I think, uh, yeah, I think that's probably more true than not true. Um, I, I think in, I think in the world right now, we are dealing with probably some things that we haven't seen and

Ken Lucci 42:31

chaos.

Joey Mills 42:31

really,

Ken Lucci 42:31

the chaos factor.

Joey Mills 42:33

it, it really in the last 15 years. But, but I do tend to agree with you. I think it's like any business model or any industry, you either learn to adapt and figure out how to change with what's going on or you get left behind,

James Blaine 42:45

Uh.

Ken Lucci 42:46

know, it's, Uh. it's so funny that you said that because, uh, the call before I got on this, I had a call with a, a, a very large client, excuse me, very large prospective client out in California. And he said, listen, you know, so-and-so does business with you. You've improved his, improved his profitability, and you know, we want to have you come in and do a business plan. I said, well, back up. We do financial reporting, a financial review of your business to look at what's healthy, unhealthy, and, in the case you're talking about, you know, we found some things that needed to change.

Joey Mills 43:16

mm-hmm.

Ken Lucci 43:16

I've been doing this for 30 years. I said, okay, what were you doing in 20, 20 19? He said, oh, you know, we were doing 20 million. Great. What are you doing now? 12. Okay, so is it working? Is the same thing working for you? You just hit the nail on the head when you said adapt. Okay, so there's something about success, right? That every entrepreneur gets to the point and they're profitable and they're successful and they think, oh, I've reached the pinnacle. You know, the problem with that. It's a bitch to get up to that mountain, but it's also really difficult to stay up on that point. Right. Because it, to me, worst part of being an entrepreneur is when you get too comfortable, get too complacent. And then it's what I call omni Nip, omniscient thinking.

James Blaine 44:03

Yeah.

Ken Lucci 44:03

tomorrow for me in my life is gonna be exactly the same as today and yesterday. So you have to try new things. I mean, how many people when you went into tours said to you, ah, I've tried it, it doesn't work.

Joey Mills 44:18

Yeah, I, I, a lot, um, especially in, in the industry I was in, because you have to remember, I was more in the black car

James Blaine 44:26

Yeah. This is completely new territory for you. Yeah.

Joey Mills 44:30

coach business. When I bought this company, we had motor coaches at Gold Shield, but relatively speaking, we were new. You know,

Ken Lucci 44:36

Yep.

Joey Mills 44:37

afu, I got a funny story about the Motor Coach Co. You know, James, earlier you talked about like places to go and

James Blaine 44:43

Yeah.

Joey Mills 44:44

So I went to my first UMA in 2017

James Blaine 44:47

Okay.

Joey Mills 44:48

at, um, UMA is United Motor Coach Association.

James Blaine 44:51

which, which city was that? The way we were in, in 2017?

Joey Mills 44:55

it was in Fort Lauderdale.

James Blaine 44:56

Okay. That's what I thought.

Ken Lucci 44:58

Yeah.

Joey Mills 44:59

Yeah.

Ken Lucci 44:59

Good memory.

Joey Mills 45:00

um, anyway, I walk in on the first day, and of course I'd been used to going to Chauffeur Driven and the n LA shows. And in that world we had, I think at the time Shield had 12 motor coaches, right?

James Blaine 45:11

Yeah.

Joey Mills 45:11

the limo side we were big guys, right? We were like,

Ken Lucci 45:14

Big.

Joey Mills 45:15

yeah, you

Ken Lucci 45:15

That's big.

Joey Mills 45:16

of buses.

James Blaine 45:17

12 motor coaches. Yeah.

Ken Lucci 45:19

Yep.

Joey Mills 45:19

I walk into UMA and they have what's called the maintenance interchange, right?

James Blaine 45:23

Yep.

Joey Mills 45:23

don't know if you guys have ever been a part of this or not, but

James Blaine 45:25

Describe it'cause there's gonna be a lot of people that haven't heard of it.

Joey Mills 45:29

So, so basically it's, it's a, it's, it's operators only, no vendors. People can't go in there

James Blaine 45:35

Oh.

Joey Mills 45:35

like Prevo and those, you know, the bus companies or parts companies or anything. It's just the operators. And I was, thank goodness I was sitting toward the end.'cause I have this kind of persona of like, oh yeah, I'm a big guy. I'm happy to be here, you know, I can't wait to come in here and talk. So the people start introducing themselves and saying, okay, how much, how big they are, how long they've been in business. And you know, my naiveness I'm thinking, oh yeah, we're, we got 12 and we've been in business five years now. And you know, the first guy was like, oh, I got 350. The second guy's like, I got 800, you know, and I'm like, been in business since 1950. And I'm like, oh, okay, this is different.

James Blaine 46:12

The, the you, you were sitting with the Legacy Motor coach operators, the ones that have been doing it since Yeah.

Joey Mills 46:17

is a different different animal here that I'm

Ken Lucci 46:20

Yep. And you know, we found the same thing when we, we did a UMA. No, it was Pennsylvania Bus Association. We did a preparing your business to exit we did a webinar, uh, this was about a year and a half ago. And we get a phone call from three operators and I'm like, okay, Pennsylvania bus companies, how can they be, how big can they be? 35 million, 35 million,

James Blaine 46:46

Yeah.

Ken Lucci 46:47

million. This division of my company is 10 million. But

James Blaine 46:50

Yeah.

Ken Lucci 46:51

know, and, and when you delve into those financials and you look at profitability of line runs and you look at profitability of tours, and no, we don't. And it was, what was foreign to me was there was just a lack of charter In many of those companies. There are tons of touring, tons of, of, of, of, um, line runs as well. So what was your, if, what's the most challenging thing about the Motor Coach side of your business?

Joey Mills 47:26

So I think, um, think it's probably threefold in that, I think, I think probably the biggest challenge is the capital investment.

James Blaine 47:34

Yep.

Joey Mills 47:34

Um, especially, especially when you're talking people from the limo business, right?

Ken Lucci 47:39

Mm-hmm.

Joey Mills 47:40

they're, they're used to buying five to seven to 10 vehicles for what you're gonna purchase for one.

James Blaine 47:47

One coach. Yep.

Ken Lucci 47:49

Yeah.

Joey Mills 47:49

so, so to bite that apple, it's sometimes a little bit daunting. Um, I think probably the second is to run it like you run a limo business. for me that was one of the most challenging things because I especially, so one of the things that was hard for me when I came to Knox and bought this. I was realizing how I could utilize my school buses because I was very hesitant to send my school bus to a wedding. Right. Because I've been taught, okay, a wedding, it needs to be pristine. You need to have people in shirts and ties and coats and you know, the whole nine

James Blaine 48:25

Yeah.

Joey Mills 48:26

Well, I didn't want the school bus to be associated with my company first moved to Knoxville.'cause I thought it would cheapen it. And so I was hesitant to market that to my wedding side. Well now I do it all the time.

James Blaine 48:39

Yeah.

Ken Lucci 48:40

Yeah.

Joey Mills 48:40

or 10 school buses on a weekend at a wedding.

Ken Lucci 48:43

Yeah.

Joey Mills 48:44

people don't care. they just

Ken Lucci 48:45

No,

Joey Mills 48:46

want the transportation.

James Blaine 48:47

What's your difference in price point, Joey? I mean, obviously, you know, if you want, you want a brand new motor coach versus a school bus. Is that where you saw the opportunity is to get them in at a lower price point? Or where did the opportunity come in?

Joey Mills 49:00

And, and, and I think an availability standpoint,

James Blaine 49:02

Yeah,

Joey Mills 49:02

know, as I said, we don't do a lot in the, in the peak seasons for us on

James Blaine 49:07

yeah.

Joey Mills 49:07

we can offer the school buses as shuttles, and a lot of people will be okay with it.

James Blaine 49:11

Well, and the bus is just sitting there. Yeah.

Ken Lucci 49:14

talk about, we do heat, we do heat maps for people where we show 365 days of utilization

James Blaine 49:20

So,

Ken Lucci 49:21

and we show what hours of the day the vehicles are actually moving. And then you have this big swath of red, right?

James Blaine 49:28

no.

Ken Lucci 49:29

many bus and motor coach companies and school bus companies. It's almost always Thursday, Friday, or excuse me, Saturday and Sunday, you know, so you've got the vehicle sitting there, the asset sitting there. Um, very, very astute. So, okay,

James Blaine 49:43

No.

Ken Lucci 49:44

the coach side, it, it was really, it's obviously getting over the capital, right? Getting over the capital outlay. But talk to me about that. You, you're, you are also buying a piece of equipment that you're gonna keep on the road for how many years a limo guy thinking

Joey Mills 50:00

Yeah, for sure. And, and I think that's one of the harder things to understand too, is, is you're buying a 20 year asset.

James Blaine 50:06

Yeah.

Joey Mills 50:06

Um, you know, a lot of people, especially from the limo side, are afraid to use that asset past seven or eight because it starts to get old, in that world. Um, but in the motor coachs world, you're, most companies are at the 20 year mark. Now,

Ken Lucci 50:22

Oh, absolutely.

Joey Mills 50:24

You know, they, they may, they may redo the, the fronts to make'em look newer, but

Ken Lucci 50:29

Yep.

Joey Mills 50:30

capsule of the, of the equipment is 20 years old.

James Blaine 50:33

What?

Ken Lucci 50:34

Yep.

Joey Mills 50:35

you know, uh, they're most, most people are financing on seven years.

James Blaine 50:39

Yeah.

Joey Mills 50:39

you're getting 13 years of, you know, complete free profitability outta those

Ken Lucci 50:44

So let's think of, let's just look at that. If, if you are, if you are financing a piece of equipment. for seven years, okay? And you are mixing your good, a good diversified mix of business, your gross profit margin should be like a, it should be about 40% gross. Agree on the right. Okay? So now you go into your six, seven years. Seven years in one month. Okay? I guarantee you now you're making more like 52% gross profit margin because you get a paid off piece of equipment, right? At least, And, and, and I think the limo side of the world doesn't, doesn't look at that. I mean, I just saw a very good customer mind just, you know, got rid of a 2019 van Houl with 210,000 miles on It I called him, I said, was that thing giving you a problem? He said, no. I said, was the interior beat up? No. And I felt like, I said, what the fuck are you selling it for then? but that's, it's kind of a mentality issue, right?

Joey Mills 51:39

Yeah,

James Blaine 51:40

and it, it's a different type of vehicle though, right? You can't, nobody in their right mind is gonna take an SUV, right? We're not gonna take a Suburban and put a new front end on it and rip the interior out and put a new one in. But what. Right, but these, these are really more like aircraft. You've got this massive interior. You can strip out the interior. There are no lack of companies out there that are going to cost effectively, quickly, and easily refresh the interior of the vehicle. You could put a new right and, and for, I don't know if MC i's still doing it, but for a while they'd put the new front clip on it and you do the interior in the front clip. That passenger can't tell. You just can't do that with an SUV or a sedan.

Ken Lucci 52:21

you can't, well, you can't even do it with any of the others. The,

James Blaine 52:24

No,

Ken Lucci 52:24

fall apart by that time period. And, and, but, but, but the secret, the secret to what he, what Joey is talking about is it's an asset utilization mentality

James Blaine 52:35

no.

Ken Lucci 52:36

and Okay. And how much is this costing me to maintain? If you are maintaining a motor coach properly from day one, you can get a full 20 years out of it. Right. And, and well, listen, we're not talking about 12 hours a day transit buses here, you know, we're, we're talking about, you know, charter use, transfer use and tour use. But you have to have that mindset that it's not about, it's not about the new, the new, I have to have a new leather interior. I have to have a brand new motor coach to get a new leather interior. One of my favorite people in the entire motor coach business is, is Francis that owns Academy. And, and that guy, I think he's running, I think he's running like 1800 pieces of equipment.

James Blaine 53:18

Sounds about right.

Ken Lucci 53:19

literally, he literally puts, backs, fronts, does the entire thing. He has an entire refurbishment and he's, he loves it. He's like, are you kidding me? I'd love to take A million dollar bus, strip it down, put new motor, new motor, new tranny. If you're gonna do a motor, do the tranny, do it all together, slap it all back together. Nobody knows the difference. It's just from our mentality coming from the limo side. Oh no, I, have to have the best and brightest.

Joey Mills 53:49

Mm-hmm.

Ken Lucci 53:49

and the other thing is, I think, you'll agree if you, if you take care of it, you shouldn't be able to tell a 10-year-old motor coach from a new one if you take care of it. So talk about your ma, talk about your maintenance, talk about how you keep these,

Joey Mills 54:02

I

Ken Lucci 54:02

the.

Joey Mills 54:03

think the maintenance is really important. Um, I think, you know, both from a, um. Mechanical standpoint as well as a body and interior standpoint. I think it's important. Um, you know, I, I say this all the time. Motor coaches are big drivers are gonna hit things. It just

Ken Lucci 54:20

Oh yeah. Oh yeah.

Joey Mills 54:21

It's, it's,

James Blaine 54:22

Parked objects is the number one com, right? When we deal with training, when we help train drivers, the number one thing we always hear and we're always dealing with. They forget how big the bus is and it's parked objects. It's little things. It's, I forgot. Yeah. Yeah. Or, or the back or the tail swing. Right. I forgot the, the back of the bus swings out and I smacked a car. Right.

Joey Mills 54:47

always tell my drivers, I, I will be way more upset about a left side than a right side damage because you

James Blaine 54:55

His,

Joey Mills 54:55

see the left side necessarily. But if you hit something on the right, then you're just careless

James Blaine 54:59

yeah.

Joey Mills 55:00

the

Ken Lucci 55:00

Yep.

Joey Mills 55:00

cause you can see what you're doing. Right? A hundred percent.

Ken Lucci 55:03

So talk about the maintenance piece. Do you do a lot of your own?

Joey Mills 55:07

Yeah, we do, we have, we have, uh, three mechanics that we have that, you know, are full-time, um, at our shop.

Ken Lucci 55:14

because you get 17, 17 motor, um, uh, school buses, right?

Joey Mills 55:17

I got, I got 12, 12 motors and 17 school buses.

Ken Lucci 55:21

17 and 12. So the 29

James Blaine 55:24

vehicles.

Joey Mills 55:24

stuff. Yeah.

James Blaine 55:26

Yeah.

Ken Lucci 55:26

need those mechanics. Yep. Yep.

Joey Mills 55:31

but it, it's important to have that because as you all well know, one breakdown on the road, your profitability's completely gone.

James Blaine 55:39

Well, and you've gotta have people you can call on the road too.

Joey Mills 55:44

exactly that, that's probably the third most challenging thing that you asked me that I didn't get to, but that

James Blaine 55:49

Yeah,

Joey Mills 55:49

number three, is when you have a breakdown in a motor coach, it's so much different than dealing with breakdown in an SUV. That's, you know. 15 minutes from your shop or whatever, that you

James Blaine 56:01

yeah.

Joey Mills 56:01

something else too.

Ken Lucci 56:02

Yep.

Joey Mills 56:03

you're on the road and, and you know, as we all know in the business, the breakdowns only happen at 3:00 AM on Saturday morning, you know,

Ken Lucci 56:09

Absolutely.

Joey Mills 56:10

weekend

James Blaine 56:11

There there's little timers in every piece of equipment that are set to the worst possible time.

Joey Mills 56:16

it's 4:00 AM I'm gonna break,

James Blaine 56:18

Yeah. Yeah. That's how it works.

Joey Mills 56:20

one of the

Ken Lucci 56:21

So how do you manage that? Yeah.

Joey Mills 56:23

one of the most important things I would tell you is this one, the driver immediately needs to start managing it from a client standpoint,

James Blaine 56:33

Yep.

Joey Mills 56:33

That might be the most important thing of all of this is to manage it, be honest, even if honest is bad.

James Blaine 56:41

Yeah.

Joey Mills 56:41

I had, I had a whirlwind coming back from New York City about three years ago now. Uh, the breakdown happened about three 30. calls me, Hey, I've thrown a belt. I think the alternators, you know, got a problem. What can I do? I said, well, here's the deal. Where are you at? He tells me he's about an hour and 40 minutes, from, I wanna say maybe, um, I don't know what city, but hour and 40 minutes from the largest city that was near him. And I said, look, it's probably gonna be 10 o'clock before I get a bus there.

James Blaine 57:16

Yeah.

Joey Mills 57:16

honest with you right now.

James Blaine 57:17

Yep.

Ken Lucci 57:17

Mm-hmm.

Joey Mills 57:18

morning, right. I'm probably not gonna get him. And, and I knew I couldn't get a mechanic to fix it on the side of the road, so I knew a bus was my only option. said, so I'm, you need to tell the passengers, it's gonna be 10:00 AM They need to get comfortable now. He was able to get it off the road. They were at like a rest area kind of thing. And he's like, that's six hours. I said, but be honest, because if you're not honest, this is gonna go in the wrong direction. He goes and tells the passengers it's gonna be two to three hours,

James Blaine 57:46

No.

Joey Mills 57:46

so. So we get the bus there at 9:40 AM

James Blaine 57:52

Okay.

Joey Mills 57:52

able to

Ken Lucci 57:52

Sure.

Joey Mills 57:53

a bus, get somebody there at 9:40 AM

James Blaine 57:55

Which would've been earlier than expected. Right. He would've had good news. I told you it was this and I got it there early, but no. Now we're late.

Joey Mills 58:03

yeah. If, if he would've just followed instructions. But I think that's one of the first keys is to make sure you're planning that right.

James Blaine 58:09

Yeah.

Ken Lucci 58:09

Yep.

Joey Mills 58:10

I think having good partners that you can call on the road, which I, which is one reason I think the shows are really important. The UMass, the ABAs,

Ken Lucci 58:18

Yep, yep, yep,

Joey Mills 58:21

That,

Ken Lucci 58:21

yep.

Joey Mills 58:22

that's the most important part of those shows, is making that connection.'cause I tell people all the time, if you call me and I don't know you at 3:00 AM I'm probably gonna do everything I can, but I

Ken Lucci 58:33

But that's just you.

James Blaine 58:35

Well, but the time to make a friend is before you need a friend. Right.

Ken Lucci 58:40

Right.

Joey Mills 58:41

you call me at 3:00 AM you know, and, and we sat in a bar and had a couple beers. I'm gonna be much more likely to be like, okay, let me move heaven and earth

James Blaine 58:50

Yeah.

Joey Mills 58:51

care of this person.

Ken Lucci 58:52

And that motor coach, the motor coach side of the indu ground transportation industry is a hell of a lot more congenial. Am I Right.

Joey Mills 59:00

Absolutely. It, it definitely is. And, but I will say this about the motor coach side as opposed to the livery side. The motor coach side is also o'clock on Friday we're closed,

James Blaine 59:13

It's not a 24 hour business.

Joey Mills 59:15

and, and

Ken Lucci 59:16

yep, yep,

Joey Mills 59:17

again at 9:00 AM on Monday morning.

Ken Lucci 59:19

yep,

Joey Mills 59:19

you have those relationships that you

Ken Lucci 59:22

yep,

Joey Mills 59:22

somebody's cell phone or you can get

Ken Lucci 59:24

yep, yep.

Joey Mills 59:25

and send a message and say,

James Blaine 59:26

No.

Joey Mills 59:27

so and so, I'm near you. I'm broke down. Do you have anything? If not, please tell me who I can call or

Ken Lucci 59:33

So, so as we wrap this up, that's critically important, is a good takeoff. What's your advice to a chauffeur guy who's been in the business for a while? Who wants to get into the motor code space. And, and I gotta tell you, I I've had more the last six, eight weeks, I've had more operators call me saying, you need to sell my business because my insurance just quadrupled. I'm not lying, quadrupled.

Joey Mills 59:59

Oh yeah,

Ken Lucci 59:59

And, and, and I, have, and I have one motor coach and I, I'm a$1.5 million operator. And, and my answer in the back of my head is, you should never have been in the motor coach business to begin with.

Joey Mills 1:00:10

Exactly. Yeah.

Ken Lucci 1:00:12

what, what, what is your advice to someone who's, let's set it up. He's gotta, they're gotta be well capitalized, okay. One of my heroes in this business Ha, from Rose Transportation down in, in Charlotte, right? H ha Thompson said to me back then, Ken, before you get into motor coaches, you better have an extra$20,000 a piece just sitting around and you get two of them. You better have an extra 40,000. And I didn't believe him, but he was right. So what is your advice to the chauffeur side that, that this horrible herd mentality in the industry? Well, I have to have this. Okay.

James Blaine 1:00:49

Keep it up with the Joneses.

Ken Lucci 1:00:51

What's your advice to somebody who wants a cha that comes from the chauffeur side, wants to get in the motor coach side?

Joey Mills 1:00:57

So I think the first thing I would make sure of is you have the demand, um, which means that you're doing, you're either turning down calls or you're farming out at least$350,000 a year in work.

Ken Lucci 1:01:09

Agreed.

James Blaine 1:01:09

Say, say that again.'cause a lot of guys don't get this, they just want to go by the bus.

Joey Mills 1:01:15

Unless

Ken Lucci 1:01:15

Yep.

Joey Mills 1:01:15

unless you're turning it down or you're sending it to somebody else and it's 350,000, you're not ready for a bus.

James Blaine 1:01:21

Yep,

Ken Lucci 1:01:22

Great.

Joey Mills 1:01:22

I would say that almost needs to be 500

James Blaine 1:01:26

yep,

Joey Mills 1:01:27

wanna have two buses to start.

James Blaine 1:01:28

yep.

Ken Lucci 1:01:29

Yep.

Joey Mills 1:01:29

you're at 500, you can easily get to 700 if you've got the equipment and you can market it.

Ken Lucci 1:01:34

Yep.

Joey Mills 1:01:34

you're there, I wouldn't even consider it because you're gonna make more profit sending it somewhere else if you just

Ken Lucci 1:01:40

Correct.

James Blaine 1:01:41

All it takes is one downturn, right? If you're at the limit of I barely have enough for one bus and you lose one client or you lose, there's any kind of drop, right? The rule of thumb I was always taught when we moved into the motor coach industry by the mentors that I've been lucky enough to have there is you gotta have enough business for two buses and then you can buy one, and then you do that again, and you use those partnerships that we've talked about. Ken, I think you'd probably agree.

Ken Lucci 1:02:07

well, one of my favorite people in the industry, Johnny from Sterling, uh, transportation in Philadelphia. So, Johnny, Johnny, I mean, I've known Johnny since the first time I went to his 20 group and he calls me up about a year and a.

Joey Mills 1:02:22

too, by the way.

Ken Lucci 1:02:23

There you go. I remember that's, there you go. Um, so he called me about, about a year ago. I said, look, I wanna give the motor code space. What do you think?

James Blaine 1:02:30

Yeah.

Ken Lucci 1:02:30

much motor code business are you doing? He said, at at least a million dollars. Okay. And I said, so tell me about it. He said, Ken, I can't part, I can't find anybody that wants to take the work. I I don't have

James Blaine 1:02:41

No.

Ken Lucci 1:02:41

that wants to do the work. Forget about the price. They're all too busy. So what we did is we did a financial proforma for him, and I said, John, Johnny, here's what I want you to look at. Look at the number of what it costs you when this bitch is not moving. Look at that number per day, can you handle it? Absolutely. We did a production possibility where we showed he wanted to use it and he's actually on his second by now, right? We wanted to use it for his wedding business'cause he's, he's unbelievable in Philadelphia. And we did a production possibility. We actually did his break even on that piece of equipment. And I said, can you do it? He said, absolutely can do it. And we set his pricing up before he ever owned the piece of equipment. What is he gonna charge for transfers? What is he gonna charge for charter by the hour? What is minimum? Is it gonna be, we literally called the manufacturer and said, how much miles per gallon is that vehicle gonna get and how long's the warranty? And I actually made him put money aside for repair and maintenance even. He's like, Ken, it's under warranty. I said, stop, put. you to calculate it and repair and maintenance.'cause you're not gonna do it next year. So the one, he's, he and many others that are like him, very methodically thought through the process. Okay. Another client up in Boston that, that literally could not get anybody to do his work. And Boston had a lot of motor coach companies and they were screwing up his work. So I said, okay, well if you're gonna do this, we need to figure out a business plan around this coach. And he's on his third coach now, so. So, okay. So talk about from a, from a capital perspective and what else should they be aware of?

Joey Mills 1:04:23

So I think, you know, making sure you have the work. I think the

James Blaine 1:04:26

Up

Joey Mills 1:04:26

is, is you wanna make sure that you run it like a motor coach company. So many of the operators, especially in chauffeur transportation, they wanna run it like a limo.

James Blaine 1:04:39

up.

Joey Mills 1:04:40

or a sedan or an SUV and it's not the same animal. It's not the same animal from the driver. It's not the same animal from the clientele,

Ken Lucci 1:04:47

And, and, and when that,

James Blaine 1:04:49

It's not the same business.

Ken Lucci 1:04:51

And, when that thing sits for two or three days, it costs you a shit load more than an SUV costs you

Joey Mills 1:04:57

key things you said about Johnny, and actually talked to him a little bit too when he was getting into the space, the pricing. You know, it, it's funny, I talk about it all the time. So whatever, I'm trying to send a, a farm out somewhere, you know, or a affiliate job. I rarely use chauffeur transportation companies that have motor coaches. Because they want to tell me, oh, it's a five hour minimum at$180. I'm like, no, I need a price for the day. Well, we don't do that. I'm like,

James Blaine 1:05:25

They're treating it like it's black car.

Joey Mills 1:05:27

coaches.

James Blaine 1:05:28

Yeah.

Joey Mills 1:05:29

it, you

James Blaine 1:05:30

I.

Joey Mills 1:05:30

how motor coaches are priced. I can't tell my softball team that's traveling to your area gonna be there three days that it's gonna be a five hour minimum at$212 an hour for

Ken Lucci 1:05:41

Right.

Joey Mills 1:05:42

need to know what the price is gonna be.

Ken Lucci 1:05:44

right.

Joey Mills 1:05:44

so

Ken Lucci 1:05:45

percent.

Joey Mills 1:05:46

I, I think that would be my second thing. And, and then I think lastly the, the motor coach in that world completely different from the chauffeur world because the chauffeur world, in my mind is transactional.

Ken Lucci 1:06:04

Mm-hmm.

Joey Mills 1:06:06

I'm gonna, they're gonna be in my car for five minutes and then they're outta my car. In the motor coach world, sometimes they're with you three and four days.

Ken Lucci 1:06:14

Mm-hmm.

Joey Mills 1:06:15

ever have that in the sedan and SUV world. So the driver training that goes into that, and the way you're trying to create your culture and your company is completely different than it is you're doing the sedan and SUV. Yeah, you have to be on point for 20 minutes, but if you're a motor coach driver, you gotta be on point for four or five days sometimes.

James Blaine 1:06:34

And, and we could do a whole nother episode on that. You know, when we So, so we are like you Joey, we are just kings of timing, right? We nailed it. Like you nailed it. Pax makes its move towards bus in 2019. We, we timed it to the button, right? We launched our motor coach training in March of 2020.'cause God helped me. I have all the right timing answers. But, but all joking aside, one of the things that when we were really making the move towards developing that training and working there, it's a completely different relationship. It's a completely different world, right? A chauffeur's got a load, a couple pieces of luggage. I. You have to, even just loading luggage, you have to pace yourself. You gotta really be smart. You gotta think about things. Yeah. You have to organize it. You gotta slide it in because you've got all of these seats on the bus. If everybody's got one piece of luggage right now, you got 50 some odd pieces of luggage. Plus the hover around scooters, we won't even get started on those. And then your relationship is different because like you said, it's not, Hey, I'm gonna turn around and hand you a water bottle. It's, I want to try and greet them and welcome them on the bus. And then, you know, it's funny because one of the things you've never seen in a training video for a driver, one of our training videos, you know, you actually see someone come up and try to hug the driver. Why? Because that happens in the Motor Coach world. You've been on that bus with them for three or four days. So I think you know, it, it kind of goes both ways. There's these great things you can pull from Motor Coach. There's these great things you can pull from chauffeur. But Joey, I think as we kind of bring this to a close, you couldn't have outlined any better that you have to understand that these businesses are fundamentally different even though they're somewhat the same. What would you say, right? As we kind of close it out, we've got time for, for kind of a closeout, what is the big takeaway for you? Or if you've got someone that's been listening to this episode, right? Maybe they're a, a motor coach operator, maybe they're on the black car side, you know, maybe they're school bus. They're thinking about go in one of these directions. What do you tell that person? Like, what's the key lesson? If you had one thing to share and leave people with that you would leave them with on your experience,

Joey Mills 1:08:43

I think. I think the key to anything is when you're starting anything, figure out what the end looks like and then work backwards. What's your ultimate goal?

James Blaine 1:08:52

Okay.

Joey Mills 1:08:52

What, what, what is your ultimate goal? What do you want out of it? You know, I wanna start motor coaches. Do I want 20, I wanna start black car. Do I want 10 or do I want a revenue number? Or do I want a bottom line number? What is my goal? And then you make your decisions to get to that goal. what's my timeline for that goal? Right? Like when we bought this company here, my business partner's about eight years older than me.

James Blaine 1:09:15

Okay.

Joey Mills 1:09:16

he wants to be out at 66, uh, he's 62 right now. I wanted to be out at 55. We sat down and talked about that before we started. This is how we want, what we wanna do is manage toward getting to those numbers and then any, anything we undertake, whatever decision we always talk about, what do we want it to look like in the end?

James Blaine 1:09:36

Right.

Joey Mills 1:09:37

we want to do for five years or is this something we wanna do for two? And then pivot and transition in a different way. But I think anything you do business-wise, new product line. Whatever you're doing, start with the end in mind and work your way back. I think if you're always working toward that goal, you're probably gonna be successful more times than not.

James Blaine 1:09:57

I don't know that there's Ken, I don't know about you. I don't, I don't know that you can end on a better note than that.

Ken Lucci 1:10:02

way to end.

James Blaine 1:10:03

I, I, I gotta say, Joey, you know, I, I've gotten to know you. I, I remember when you're still at Gold Shield and I've watched you progress. I know. I gotta tell you, you've got tons to be proud of. You've done an incredible job and I think I speak for Ken and I when I say we appreciate you being willing to share and coming on, and we'll have to have you back on

Joey Mills 1:10:22

Yeah, definitely. Thank you all so

Ken Lucci 1:10:25

No, I, I actually made notes about other things we could talk to him

James Blaine 1:10:29

Huh?

Ken Lucci 1:10:29

his experience buying the business, his experience with a partner, his experience on business planning. A hundred percent. Uh, knows he's one of my favorite people in the industry and he knows why too. So.

Joey Mills 1:10:41

mutual, you know that too, so,

Ken Lucci 1:10:44

man. Uh, listen, we really appreciate you coming on, uh, James. Close us out.

James Blaine 1:10:49

Hey, thank you everybody for listening. As always, please subscribe. Drop us a comment like let us know if we're doing something you like or something we don't like. And as always, we'll see you guys on the next episode. Bye-bye.

1:11:01

Thank you for listening to the ground transportation podcast. If you enjoyed this episode, please remember to subscribe to the show on apple, Spotify, YouTube, or wherever you get your podcasts. For more information about PAX training and to contact James, go to PAX training.com. And for more information about driving transactions and to contact Ken, Go to driving transactions.com. We'll see you next time on the ground transportation podcast.