Ken Lucci 0:25

And welcome everybody to the Ground Transportation Podcast. Another exciting episode. That means it's a Friday. Um, I don't know which Friday it's gonna be when John John drops this, but it's a Friday and this is the best day of the week for me because I don't have to talk finance, deal with buyers and sellers. I can have a little bit of fun. Um, my name is Ken Lucci from Driving Transactions. my cohort, James Blaine from PAX Training is, uh, out training somebody somewhere. Um, so I am blessed today to, um, be, uh, interviewing a true icon in the sales industry, sales training industry. Uh, Julie Thomas. Um, she wrote the book, and I'm gonna hold it up, even though podcast people can't see it, but YouTube people will be, uh, the power of value selling. And she, uh, to me, uh, after reading this book, 'cause you know, a lot of people put out books, but after this reading this book, she's a true subject matter expert. At the practice of selling value over just selling low price and how to differentiate your company and how to differentiate any product you sell, any service you sell to sell the true value of what you bring to the table. And I, Julie, I am so happy to have you. Um, I, I read a lot and I am blessed, uh, when, when I'm able to connect with an author and, uh, you are, you are truly an icon at what you do. And, and people can't see the book, but I will tell you in the, the, the, the name of the book again is the Gold Standard, uh, the Power of Value Selling the Gold Standard to drive revenue and create Customers for Life. And when you, when you get the book and you look in the front of the book, the first few pages and the back jacket are praises of this book from business leaders who frankly are the who's who. Of US corporations, us big, uh, US co best and biggest companies, as well as universities around the country. So congratulations on the book. Um, what you preach to our audience. This is why I wanted you to come on. What you preach is what our industry needs. Uh, it's so much, it's so important. It's as Im important to me as the fuel we put in our vehicles. What you teach is what every business owner of a private transportation company should be doing to train their staff on a daily basis. So I am absolutely thrilled beyond belief to, to have you here. Before we get into the kind of the mechanics or nuts and bolts of how to sell value, uh, Julie Thomas, please tell us about your career and tell us about your company Value Selling Associates.

Julie Thomas 3:08

Awesome. Well, Kent, thank you so much. That was a nice lead up. I hope you haven't oversold, uh, this conversation in any way. Um, but I, I appreciate the endorsement for the book, for our methodology and for our approach. Um, and, um, and thanks for the opportunity to, to meet your audience today. Um, I, I started out in finance, um, when I first graduated from college, and quickly realized, eh, this is not really what I wanna be doing. And so I ended up getting a, in, um, entry level inside sales job for, at the time, kind of a startup research company on the east coast. That company, um, is now a $5 billion leader in their industry and goes by the name of Gartner. And, uh, when I was at Gartner, I really, I learned so much. We were moving so fast. Um, and I also rode, rode that growth and was promoted, um, repeatedly in the 16 years that I spent there, starting in an entry level sales job, ending as a group vice president where I was running all of talent development, onboarding, sales, training for the entire global sales organization at the time.

Ken Lucci 4:41

and Gardner, so everybody knows is you, that you sell research, you sell the ex, you sell the expertise of creating data, research. It's a service. I mean, it's an intangible.

Julie Thomas 4:55

Oh, absolutely. It's a, um, our primary product. Their primary product still is syndicated research by industry analysts package up for the IT professional. So think of it as consumer reports on steroids. Um, that gives you insight into what you should be buying, what you should be spending on it, how you should architect your IT infrastructure. And that's a gross oversimplification of what they do, but they really help the end users deploy, manage, and exploit technology to achieve their business outcomes and business goals.

Ken Lucci 5:36

So how long you, were you with Gardner?

Julie Thomas 5:38

I was there for 16 years.

Ken Lucci 5:40

Wow. For you? Entry level all the way up to basically the head of global sales.

Julie Thomas 5:45

gr um, global sales training. So I,

Ken Lucci 5:48

Gotcha. Good. Beautiful.

Julie Thomas 5:50

to a group vice president in global sales training when I exited the company and joined our supplier Value selling associates, um, at the time, and then ultimately became the leader of this organization.

Ken Lucci 6:06

So tell us about value selling.

Julie Thomas 6:08

So value selling, um, really was born, um, the founder was X-I-B-M-X. Xerox had gone through a lot of sales training and over his career had recognized that there was some gaps that, um, that he discovered in sales. And he went out on his own and created the value selling framework. and then we, my boss hired him. At Gartner. And so I was introduced to it. So it was really the fuel of my career. Value selling is a sales approach. It's a framework of how you structure conversations to be much more deliberate and intentional for the outcomes that you want, which is to qualify an op, create an opportunity, qualify that opportunity, advance it, and close it. And we historically have worked with business to business sales teams that are trying to compete on value. So they are not trying to be the low cost provider in their space. And, and we have some fabulous companies that have used us over the years from salesforce.com to Adobe, to Motorola, to Google. and just to name a few, um, as well as companies not in technology like thermal, um, scientific and Cardinal Health and various, um, companies in a multitude of industries that are selling business to business. And they come to us because they're sales people might be struggling. Maybe they're struggling to gain access to the right people. Maybe they're struggling to differentiate their solution so they can command a premium price or a higher price. Or maybe they're just struggling to close their pipeline, um, and they want their salespeople engaging with their prospects differently. A couple of years ago, um, I, I asked myself, gosh, we work with all these companies. what about the individual sales reps that are out there, the solopreneurs, the entrepreneurs, the businesses that might have one or two salespeople but aren't the full enterprise?

Ken Lucci 8:30

Yeah. The small business people who depend on sales every day but don't do it, right? Correct.

Julie Thomas 8:35

Well, absolutely because most of the, the entrepreneurs out there are entrepreneurs because they're good at something. They're, they love cars and they're good at driving. They're good at managing a fleet, they're good at logistics, they're good at those things. And it's not that they're not good at sales, they've just never been taught how to

Ken Lucci 8:55

Correct.

Julie Thomas 8:56

So they show up and have conversations. Um, and those conversations might not always be serving them as well as they would like. So we actually took everything we do at the corporate level and packaged it up for the entrepreneur individual. Who might be, um, struggling with sales or wondering why they have a great first meeting, but then nobody ever calls them back or wondering why they're getting objections on price, um, because the customer just doesn't get it. I hear, I hear that, uh, last week from a prospect that said, you know, I go in and I do all have all these conversations and the customer just doesn't get it. So they're not willing to, to pay.

Ken Lucci 9:42

Well, because you, they're not speaking the language of value. Right.

Julie Thomas 9:46

They're not speaking the language of, of value. And, and more importantly, they're typically leading with product. Let me tell you what I do and how I do it and why it's great, and not connecting that to the needs or the desires of the person that they're selling to.

Ken Lucci 10:02

yep. What brought us here today and what problem am I solve solving? What did you do before today? Right? How did they fail you and how can I do better? in a prior life, I was in the home security business and I, I sup, this is when I was a much, much younger, handsome man. Well, maybe younger anyway, and I supervised 120 salespeople in the Southeast. And, and I always preach the fact that, you know, selling low prices is the laziest thing in the world. it is. Anybody can sell low price and you're not building any customer loyalty there. So what I love about what you do is you package a program. Typically only a Fortune 100, fortune 500 company could afford to pay somebody like you to come in and implement, and you put it into something that's easy to implement. So tell, tell us about the program and then go into kind of the specifics that someone would learn,

Julie Thomas 10:56

Sure. Um, so the program is built on the foundation of this, you know, award-winning methodology that we have sold for years to, to businesses. And you're right, the way we package it for a company, um, would not be, cost effective. Uh, I, I wouldn't even be able to tell a really small business or a solo entrepreneur. To buy it the way we package it for the corporation. So, so, but we took everything we do and looked at the entire revenue cycle of your company, for example. So you've got the, the finding the prospects, tweaking the messages, gaining access, creating opportunities, closing opportunities, and then turning that into customers for life. Most of the people that I work with don't wanna sell you something one time. They wanna sell you something every time, or it's a renewable service, or they want to be the preferred supplier whenever that need comes up. So we wanna create customers for life and be the preferred supplier for whatever we're doing and

Ken Lucci 12:12

gimme the, gimme the fundamentals. Gimme the fundamentals. Start with identifying who the right prospect is, and then just take me through the first meeting and what's important. To build the best foundation for success.

Julie Thomas 13:34

So the, the first, um, so it, it's important to know who you're selling to and what problems that you solve. One of our fundamental principles is people need a reason to change. And so oftentimes we lead with product and we think that we are the best thing since sliced bread. And we might be, but if the, if the buyer doesn't have a reason to change, then it's just noise. And so we focus on the whole concept of if I'm selling transportation services, luxury transportation, You know, like, like your audience is, what problem are you solving for them? Maybe you're solving that they go to the airport all the time and they don't wanna leave their car at the airport. Maybe you're solving that they're in the event business and they need to move people from the church to the party, to the wherever they might be going. For some of those e events, maybe whatever those problems that you are solving for them, it is important that you focus on that because that's where those, the value will accrue to. And in many cases, I'm gonna go out on a limb and say, your audience isn't just selling transportation. They're selling an experience.

Ken Lucci 15:02

A hundred percent.

Julie Thomas 15:03

It's reliable, it's clean, it smells good. You know what to get. You've got a professional driver. You've got a respectful driver. All of those things are the intangibles that make for a great experience that your buyers have. So I wanna, I want them to tap into that in my conversation. Not just the truck, the van, the bus that's gonna show up to pick them up.

Ken Lucci 15:33

right. And everybody assumes you're gonna get them to the airport on time, right? So the point A to point B is assumed, it's like, I'm gonna put the meal on the table for you in a restaurant that's assumed, but the value is over and above all of that. The value creation is, it's all about the individual customer's problems and how you tailor and solve them. So how do you do that when you first, you know who your target audience is, you know who you want to do business with. You know what your service is is kind of simpatico with this particular market. What does the first appointment go like? And how can you hit it? How can you hit it out of the park or at least hit a, a standup double.

Julie Thomas 16:20

So the first appointment is not about your products and services, it's about your buyer's needs, their problems, their challenges, their opportunities. We use the word problem,

Ken Lucci 16:30

right? what they did before,

Julie Thomas 16:32

what they did before, maybe what their future needs are, maybe what worked for them, what didn't work for them. But you show up to that first meeting. Armed with questions to engage them. That first meeting, you should not be talking

Ken Lucci 16:49

Not verbal diarrhea, right? Not the, the sales pitch. That's four, five minutes of blah. It's, it's, so you're telling me key questions, critical questions, tailored to that. specific person. How do I, how do I, how do I frame those questions? Do you recommend the salesperson, you know, do advanced work on the client?

Julie Thomas 17:11

Yeah, absolutely. I gotta do, I gotta, I gotta show up and prove to them that I know enough about them to be relevant. Um, so here's a, here's an example. I had somebody reach out to me. The name of my company is Value Selling.

Ken Lucci 17:29

Yep.

Julie Thomas 17:29

Now, if you go to my website, you know what I do? Somebody reached out to me, I happen to pick up the phone. They started talking to me as if I'm a realtor, and they said, oh, value selling. You're a realtor. I said, What led you to that conclusion? They hadn't done any, they hadn't even bothered to look at my, my website. They hadn't bothered to look at my LinkedIn profile. I'm not hard to find.

Ken Lucci 17:57

No. Oh God no. And they treated you like any cookie. The worst thing in the world is to treat every customer like a cookie cutter customer. Everybody's the same.

Julie Thomas 18:06

Well, they were trying to sell me something that a realtor needs. They didn't even know who I was. And so she went on and finally I said, let me stop you for a minute. Who do you think you're talking to? And she said, I'm talking to Julie Thomas, the realtor. I said, no, you're not. You're talking to Julie Thomas, the sales trainer.

Ken Lucci 18:26

no, and, and honestly, nothing worse. Nothing worse in life than them wasting your time and then they're wasting their company's money because They did not do even the basic qualifying.

Julie Thomas 18:42

They didn't do that. They, they didn't respect my time enough to even know who they were talking to. And, and it goes beyond that, Ken, they damaged their reputation because I do know a lot of realtors and the experience left such a sour taste in my mouth that I wouldn't even refer them to anybody. You know what, you really should be talking to my next door neighbor or the woman across the house, or the man, the man in the office next door. They might need your services because that's your target buyer. But no, no. How no way was I going to take my reputation and introduce them because it was such a, uh, an. Yucky experience, in my opinion. So you, so bad sales calls go beyond, can go beyond just the individual that you're talking to,

Ken Lucci 19:36

No, no. Making assumptions. Making assumptions when you're trying to, sell something absolutely awful. Treating someone like, like treating everybody the same. Absolutely terrible. So you're value selling starts with first premise of value. Selling is engaging the prospective client. By listening and asking pointed questions about their needs. Correct?

Julie Thomas 20:08

in their needs and everything, their e their needs, their timeline. What's important to them and how will they measure the impact

Ken Lucci 20:17

Correct.

Julie Thomas 20:18

you solve those problems.

Ken Lucci 20:20

one of the things we always ask is, what is the measure of success? What's success? if you engage us, what's your measure of success? What will you consider to be something that's hitting it outta the park? And I'll stop with the baseball analogies. one of the problems. this industry has is we have someone who, who, the people who take orders are the people who respond to prospects, call themselves reservationists. And I'm of the school that for everybody's a salesperson, everybody in the organization is a salesperson. But in our case, the industry is. Back in the day, the, the reservation department, basically they were order takers. now with so much competition from TNCs, from Uber, from Lyfts, from, from every competitor, anybody that comes into the market, reservationists don't consider themselves salespeople, so they don't use selling skills. How do you convince someone that's in an inside position? How can, how can they over the phone sell their value and do what you're talking about doing? It's not a face-to-face sale,

Julie Thomas 21:32

No one's has face-to-face sales right now. I mean, so everything's on the phone on the Zoom. It's, it's, everybody's an inside sales rep, everybody. Um, so I think, I think there's a couple of things. Number one, it starts with, with clear expectations from leaders. What is your job and what is the expectation from that standpoint? But I'll tell you a little story. We worked with a company, some of you might have heard of them, called Rosetta Stone.

Ken Lucci 22:02

Oh God, yeah,

Julie Thomas 22:03

Rosetta Stone Language Learning. Remember, I mean, they don't do it anymore, but 15 years ago you could not walk through an airport and see the kiosks of all of the yellow boxes selling their language learning. And they did an outrageous amount of advertising. And they had two business models. They had the consumer model, you're buying the box at the airport, or, or you could pick up the, you know, respond to an ad and call an 800 number and they'd ship it to you. And then they also had the business to business side, what they call the commercial business that was selling professional development. So I've got a executive who I'm moving to Italy for a year. I'm gonna get Rosetta Stone for him and his family to make, make that transition easier. Their inside salespeople were, the phone was ringing off the hook, the orders were coming in and on the business to business side, their average order was about four to $5,000. Not bad for a phone call.

Ken Lucci 23:05

Are you kidding? That's fantastic.

Julie Thomas 23:06

Yeah, but they, but they, they had an inkling that it could be more. So I went in and I trained those inside salespeople, and they were afraid that if they started asking too many questions, A, they would annoy the buyer, and B, they would slow the sales process down to a dead stop. So we just said, let's try to ask a couple more questions than you're asking. Now. At the beginning, they were asking how many people, how many languages. That was it. And then they were saying, okay, that'll be $4,000. That'll be $5,000. You've got 20 people who need Spanish. That'll

Ken Lucci 23:43

Go right to price. One, two questions go right to price.

Julie Thomas 23:47

transactional like that. We taught them to ask, why do you need this and do you have any other language requirements that might go this? Within 30 days, that average transaction of 5,000 grew to over 12.

Ken Lucci 24:06

Unbelievable. So let, I wanna stop you there and I want you to, I wanna put it into the transportation space. Somebody calls you in and they call you a prospect. They're a prospect and they say, um, I need you, I need to, uh, order a airport service, or how much to and from the airport, right? If you go immediately to, to the price. Okay. Without. Without the what? What? Qualifying questions or asking. Asking specific questions. You are not gonna find out who's gonna be in the car, how often they travel. Oh, by the way, tell me something. What other transportation needs does your company have? So you're gonna have a hundred at best, maybe $150 transaction, but you're leaving thousands of dollars on the table. Do you have board meetings? What? Do you have any group and meeting trainings? Tell me about your business kind of thing. A hundred percent. So in that case, I can imagine that, did the inside salespeople at Rosetta Stone, did they get, did they, did you get pushback instead of them taking and treating every order, like it was gonna be a three oh $400 yellow box order, you know, one time, $300 yellow box to more of a consultative sale. So it, what you're telling me is it took two or three questions to maximize that revenue from a B2B perspective.

Julie Thomas 25:26

Yeah. And I think what what happens is you build momentum. So for sure when they first went through the training, they were like, I call it the Yeah. But syndrome. Yeah. But Julie,

Ken Lucci 25:38

Oh yeah, I love that.

Julie Thomas 25:39

but Julie, I get how this would work for them.

Ken Lucci 25:42

But yeah, but we've tried that. Oh Yeah. But, this is the way we've been doing it for years. Okay.

Julie Thomas 25:49

but but when they coupled the training as part of a change management initiative, now they had really strong leadership. They had really clear expectations, and we approached it almost like, Hey, let's try it. Let's take 30 days and we're gonna start to ask a few more questions in every conversation. Now, these people needed A, to actively listen, and b, to have the emotional intelligence to read between the lines with the prospect and not push them. If, if the prospect was like, oh my gosh, just gimme the price or I'll call someone else, like they were still, they were balancing that. But what happened is immediately a few of them had success, and once you start to have some success, you build momentum. Once you build momentum, you build excitement, and then you, you kind of start to win over some of the naysayers. And oh, by the way, the naysayers might be your top performers.

Ken Lucci 26:58

And a a hu a and they might be the sales manager or they may be the reservation, they may be the reservations department supervisor or the dispatch department supervisors. And that's, that's a death nail to change, isn't it?

Julie Thomas 27:10

Well, you can't change without them. So if you are going to train the reservationist or the frontline and you don't have the support and the buy-in of their managers, supervisors, that leaders don't bother training 'em, don't bother. You're wasting your time and your money, so,

Ken Lucci 27:34

Talk. Talk to me. Talk to me about the, the institutional employee that's been there for 20 years. Who's gonna sh who's gonna nod their head to you and then behind their back they're gonna say, yeah, but this is the latest thing that management wants us to do. How do you win, though? Over the biggest naysayers?

Julie Thomas 27:53

Well, so one of the things that we often do when we are with our clients, um, 'cause business to business has the same challenge at the corporate level, um, is number one, we approach training as part of a change management initiative, which means it's not about the training, it's about the behaviors and the outcomes that you want as a result of the training. So let's get really intentional about those outcomes and let's figure out how we're gonna not only train people to do the things that we know they need to do to get to those outcomes, but we. Align it to our management process, we integrate it into their workflow. So, you know, if your reservationists are working on a screen or if they're, filling out a form, does that form support the types of information now that you want them to, questions you want them to be asking? Or is it something separate? You've gotta make it really easy for adults or they won't do anything. Right. Anytime we get confused and, and then, and then you got the whole other issue of sales can be crazy 'cause I can do everything wrong and the customer still might buy and that now I've just reinforced the wrong behaviors. so we focus on a systemic approach to changing how you engage your customers and it's beyond the front line. And, and, and first line managers are critical. Are they, are they reinforcing it? Are they role modeling it? Are they inspecting it? Um, are they measuring it? All of those things are key. And you know, just like if I'm selling something to somebody who's gonna spend money with me, people need a reason to change. We also need to folk tap into the individual personal motivation of all of the people that we're training. And a 20 year top performer who says, oh, training's great for everybody else, but leave me alone we need to tap into their motivation as well.

Ken Lucci 31:04

from what I do, profitable companies are the worst to do business with because they don't think they have to change. The people that come to me on their knees that are not profitable, they listen to everything we say and they usually adhere to it, or they don't improve. When I'm dealing with profitable companies, there's three things we're fighting, right? Comfort, complacency, and omniscient thinking that tomorrow is gonna be just like today and yesterday. So if I'm a top sales performer, how do you come across to me and how do you convince me that I need what to change? To what you're talking about to selling value today.

Julie Thomas 31:44

Well, um, so a couple of things. So if I'm talking to the individual contributor, I say, Hey, I know why the company has asked you to be here, and I know that you got an email or you got a memo or somebody called you and said, Hey, Ken, command performance, we're doing this training, be in the office on Tuesday at eight. Um, so I flip it to them right at the very beginning. We're spending two days together. So Ken, at the end of those two days. What would you need to learn or accomplish for you to say, gosh, that was worth my time. Is there a specific challenge you have? Is there a specific objection that every time you hear it, the hair goes up on the back of your neck and you're like, oh my gosh. Um, so we try to get that individual buy-in into the workshop itself. We also take those people. I have a new client that I'm working with right now, and we've identified five key sales professionals in their organization that have what I call clout. Everybody's gonna be looking to say, well, what do they think about this?

Ken Lucci 32:52

Uh Yep,

Julie Thomas 32:53

And guess what? I'm talking to them ahead of the training. I'm asking for their input. I'm getting their buy-in. 'cause you know, change is, everybody thinks change is good, but nobody wants to be changed.

Ken Lucci 33:10

correct.

Julie Thomas 33:11

And so one of the tactics is to involve those people. In most companies, you know, who they are, involve them in the process so they feel a part of it and not victimized by it. so those are a couple of the things that we do to get that buy-in.

Ken Lucci 33:31

how would you advise a business owner to, to maximize and to make this a success? In other words, I get brought in a lot of times to work with finance departments or accounting departments, and I always use the term, I, I want this literally to be muscle memory. You're closing the books at the end of the month. You, every single transaction is closed on the last day of the month. You are closing and adjusting all your books by the 10th to 15th. We are meeting with management at, on the 20th. And how do you, how do you work with an owner to say, after the training is done, you've packed up, how can they best reinforce the selling value concept with their team?

Julie Thomas 34:16

So when we work with a client, we do a separate training for those first line managers and, and we do really three things with them. And, and maybe it's not fair. There's a higher burden on the manager to become expert faster because they're the ones that have to set the expectations and inspect what they expect. So we really do a couple of things with the managers. Number one, we say, Hey, what is your management process today? How often do you meet with them? How do you coach them? Uh, do they have to do some sort of a forecast? What does that management process look like? And what are the systems that surround those people today? And I wanna make sure that value selling is entwined in both their processes and their systems. the second thing we do in that workshop is teach them how to coach. Coaching includes role modeling. I'm going to show you how to do it if you're struggling, Ken. Let's make a call together and or you watch me and we'll do it together. So I'm gonna role model it and I'm gonna provide specific positive, positive developmental feedback that helps you get better. Positive developmental feedback is in the next call, what I want you to do is, is spend a little more time actively listening. Because what I noticed is you seem to be focused on what you're gonna say next, and you're missing clues that you might otherwise have picked up on. 'cause you're not listening as attentively as you could. That's developmental. It's about the future. Um, and it's positive and it's specific. and so those are a couple of the things that we teach in our coaching. Then the third thing we do with those leaders is say, Hey, let's not try to eat the elephant in one bite. Let's focus on one skill or behavior at a time, and build that momentum. That gets people excited that they say, okay, that worked, and now I've kind of built the habit around that. What's next? Well, next, let's ask about, you know, who else in their organization might also need these types of services?

Ken Lucci 36:49

Uh, listen, you, you're, you're, you are, you're preaching to the choir and it's the core. It's at the core of what we see, what we observe. Uh, I think a lot of small businesses, and I I think of a small business is less than 5 million. you know, a lot of the businesses we deal with are mom and pop. So the owner of themselves is involved in, in many key processes that are not just reservations or selling. they're getting the vehicles ready. They're, they're doing dispatching and they're, quote, running the business. They're in the business. It's a couple things that I think that I, that we notice is small business owners are not omnipotent. And to be good leaders, you have to be good coaches. my dad used to say he used to run a supermarket. My dad used to say, in order to be considered. An expert at what I do, I need to know how to break down a cow, cut the meat, uh, cut the cold cuts, make a sub wrap, produce, et cetera. So I think small business owners get stuck running their business instead of working on their business. What you just said to me, fits, fits perfectly. For example, I have a great customer, you know, they're about a five and a half million. We're trying to get 'em to 10 million great financial condition, and they're struggling to get their reservationists to ask the question or to, to listen to cues that may say that, that the client needs service in other cities. So if, if we're carrying Julie from her home to the Charleston Airport, what do we know? We know that Julie's getting on a plane and it's gonna land. Okay? So Julie's landing in Chicago, you know, Julie, um, tell me how long gonna be in Chicago and can I provide you service in Chicago? What do you do when you land in Chicago? Uh, you know, I'm gonna wait in the Uber line, you know? Can I help you with that? So what you just said on focusing on one change, every, uh, every person that's in the audience, every company owner, every manager should, the first change would be if you're driving somebody to the airport. Number one, try to get the round trip. Hey, when are you coming back? Julie, why don't we set up your round trip now? Tell me something. What do you, what you, how long gonna be in Chicago? Can I provide service in Chicago? Now I'm gonna use Uber when I land. How about from the hotel back? It'll be one secured transaction and. You know, what do you do when you go to other cities? Do you use Uber? Have they ever, you know, tell me about that. So the one piece of beha, one behavioral piece, or the one transaction that everybody strives for to change in this industry, you know, it's like, it's like literally trying to sell the fries or it's tr like trying to sell the dessert at the restaurant. The struggle is to get them, you've got 'em on the phone, you're selling airport, you're selling them to the airport. How do you get them to maximize that transaction? That one key would help everybody in the audience.

Julie Thomas 39:51

And it's questions. It's questions. It's, it's asking, questions. 'cause you know what, maybe in Chicago, my, my daughter's picking me up. And, and, and that's okay. But then what happens when I get back to Charleston? Or do you have any other future plans that we can give you peace of mind and have all of that? Put aside, and, and let's face it, you know, Uber's great for what Uber is.

Ken Lucci 40:18

Yep.

Julie Thomas 40:19

Cost isn't fixed, right? I, you know, the cost isn't fixed. The, uh, product is not consistent.

Ken Lucci 40:31

God no.

Julie Thomas 40:31

And, um, and anything could happen. so, you know, the, but you know, back to your point of talk about an industry that is facing constant change. You're in it. Ask the yellow cab guys, and now how many cities are getting driverless

Ken Lucci 40:52

yep,

Julie Thomas 40:53

Ubers or the Waymo? Like,

Ken Lucci 40:55

Yep.

Julie Thomas 40:55

you know, the more things, things are changing and user tolerance and acceptance will change with it. And our job as business professionals. Is to make sure we don't become obsolete and we change with it. And maybe the change isn't on the product side. Maybe it's on the customer experience side.

Ken Lucci 41:21

Uh, NN you, you are again, precinct to the choir. Um, from where we sit, we see the chauffeur space. You know, there, there definitely is more disruption coming, but at the end of the day, there are so many categories that we provide service in that are much better than the TNCs and even the taxi model, the TNC model board, meetings, groups and meetings, weddings. The most important day of your life is your wedding. You know, from a perspective of corporations, the most important thing we do is tra is keep executives on time and executive travel around the world, as well as those board meetings, the groups and meetings. So there's no shortage of opportunity, but what, what, what you are driving home to me is a couple things. Number one, the change is gonna come from leadership from the top. it can't be. Well, yeah, we're gonna try her training. It has to be a commitment from the top, whether that's, whether that's an owner or manager from the top. They've gotta practice what they preach. And changing behavior, as you've said, is about positive reinforcement. No, you're doing it wrong. That that doesn't work today. That doesn't work today. And so many leaders are stuck in that way of managing. Right, managing my fear. So what, to me, the essence of value selling is creating a rapport in the relationship. How basic is that?

Julie Thomas 42:45

Well, I mean, people do business with people that they trust that they are credible. So everybody is in the trust and credibility business. I don't care what you sell, what your product is, if you're not,

Ken Lucci 42:58

on the head.

Julie Thomas 42:59

you know, so, um, and in your space, I think relationships. Key. So how do you build relationship? You focus on the needs of the other person. We all know people in our lives that don't know anything about us and they're takers. And they're not givers, right? but we also have people in our lives that the first thing is that out of their mouths are, tell me about you. How are you? People tend to be interested in people that are interested in them. It's just kind of human nature.

Ken Lucci 43:36

And, and what you are, you are not. It's funny, you know, you've, you've not said anything about here. Here's the outline, here's the script. This is what you have to say. This is all conversational. This is literally one person. It comes right down to interpersonal relationship skills and building rapport, finding out what's critically important to that person. And if you think it's lowest price, getting to and from the airport, you're wrong. If you think it's lowest price to move 300 people. Okay. For an investor meeting, a shareholder meeting, you're, you're totally wrong, and you're not getting to the essence of what is really critically important to the person on the other end of the line. true, true or false statement. What's more, most important to me is as, as, let's say a procurement person is absolute lowest possible price, or making sure that you make me look good. In other words, what you're selling me is going to enhance what my business does. True or false,

Julie Thomas 44:36

Um, true. We, we have a, one of our foundational principles is people make emotional buying decisions for logical reasons. Now there

Ken Lucci 44:45

in your book. They justify it logically.

Julie Thomas 44:47

there.

Ken Lucci 44:48

make it emotionally and they justify it logically.

Julie Thomas 44:50

I just bought a new car. I can tell you all of the reasons I bought the car. The reality is I loved the way I felt when I sat in that car. And how pretty it was and, um, and the aesthetics. But I, but it's gas mileage, it's convenience, it's got room for the dog. It's got all the logic that I needed to, to justify it. So, but the reality is there, there might be a segment of the market that is only interested in the lowest cost. They're not my people.

Ken Lucci 45:26

There you go. Not all revenue is good. Revenue. not all revenue is good revenue.

Julie Thomas 45:31

Absolutely Not

Ken Lucci 45:33

right?

Julie Thomas 45:34

So if I identify in the first meeting that, that is your criteria, I'm gonna hug you, bless you, and release you because you are not my long-term customer. And even if I say I'm gonna, I'm gonna discount the heck out of this to get 'em and then I'm gonna wow 'em with the service level. It never works out that

Ken Lucci 45:56

It never, never works. When they ca when you give up something on your price and you cut a deal to think that you're gonna make it up long term, it never works, does it?

Julie Thomas 46:07

They, you've just devalued your products and services, so absolutely not. If you identify that, that person that you're talking to, that is their, we don't qualify. That's not qualified and we're not gonna push the rope. So that's fine. They may come back, they may leave the president of their board on the side of the road someday, or miss a critical customer meeting that costs them real revenue. But until that happens, if they say the lowest cost is good enough, you're not gonna convince 'em. So part of qualification is understanding, do they value the experience? Of your products and services versus the competitive alternatives.

Ken Lucci 47:00

correct and, and you learn more. Let's go back to this. I am a believer that it, when you lead with price, you lose lead with price and you lose. If we're having a conversation, as you say, and I'm finding out what's critically important to you and what defines success by asking questions, how often do you travel? Tell me what you do now and you know, you obviously had board meetings last year. What did you do then when, then when I quote my price, I can. Mirror back. I can quote back to them what they said to me. You know, you, you, I hear some people say, and yes, we are more expensive than Uber X or Uber Black, but we don't have any, um, surge prices and we're guaranteed. But you told me last year that at this board meeting, your provider was late and the vehicles were dirty. Yeah. We, we are definitely gonna be higher priced, but we're never gonna do that to you. So you can, when you do the practice value selling, they're giving you the ammunition, aren't they

Julie Thomas 48:11

Absolutely. Absolutely. But you can't fall back on what they've told you if you don't know it in the first place. And too many sales reps didn't ask that. They assume it. Um, or, or they don't ask it, or they ask one person and then I'm talking to another person who might have different criteria. So, you know, selling is an individual support. Back to something you said a few minutes ago, it's not a script, it's a conversation. And that's why we focus on the questions, to direct the conversation. Anytime I've ever tried a script, it doesn't work. 'cause the customer never follows their lines. So think of the old days. Ken, you and I are old enough to remember telemarketers calling our home phone every night at 6:00 PM when we

Ken Lucci 49:02

Oh, at dinner, it never fail. You sit down for dinner And the telemarketer is gonna call the home phone, no question about

Julie Thomas 49:07

And it didn't matter what you said on the phone, they kept reading their scripts

Ken Lucci 49:13

Yep.

Julie Thomas 49:14

the only way to get rid of them was ultimately to hang up because they weren't listening. They weren't, it, they, they just went through their script. It didn't matter what you said. They asked a first question. It didn't matter what you said. They asked the se, they went right into their script. It

Ken Lucci 49:31

act,

Julie Thomas 49:31

work.

Ken Lucci 49:32

it's actually insulting to your intelligent So before we go, I wanna touch on two critical things. One is what you call land and expand. Talk to me about that Land and expand the concept of landing and, and then expanding service.

Julie Thomas 49:50

so the idea is with a new logo or a new customer, you land them with a smaller opportunity. With an intentional approach to grow that revenue or business or footprint over time. So it might be land that first meeting, that first airport trip, that first board meeting, that first event with the intention of, I'm going to grow and try to build a broader, deeper relationship to become your preferred transportation for all your transportation needs. But I might have to prove my value, prove that I'm worth it with that smaller piece, of business first to mitigate their risk, that they're making a bigger, longer term commitment to an unknown.

Ken Lucci 50:45

Uh, agreed. Now that speaks to me in two ways. Number one, knowing the true lifetime value of a customer, okay? And, and, and finding a way to win their trust absolutely. Become the most credible in the marketplace, to provide the service that we provide. And then anything after that agree or disagree, they're gonna be less price sensitive to begin at, at, at that point, after you have that, if you, after you have that seat in their mind.

Julie Thomas 51:19

I think so. I think so. I mean, it, it doesn't mean that, I mean, we can't take advantage of them and, and, you know, with ridiculous prices, but we don't have a low cost alternative to win.

Ken Lucci 51:31

agreed.

Julie Thomas 51:32

you know, so absolutely once you become their preference for whatever reason, whether it's a tangible or an intangible. You're their preference now, but there's a couple things that happen. Your competitors might be out there trying to unseat you and again, focusing on, hey, you know, is there a reason for you to change? did something go wrong from that standpoint? but once you're preferred, let's face it, people are, are also kind of lazy. Like it's a lot of work just to find new suppliers and new providers.

Ken Lucci 52:11

it's exhausting.

Julie Thomas 52:12

Yeah. And, and so, you know, once we've won it, then we need to continually delight them and continually make sure we're calling out the value and reinforcing that the outcomes they expected, um, have been realized.

Ken Lucci 52:32

Always check in after every transaction, especially in the beginning, but always check in to make sure everything went perfect, whether it's a, a text message, email, or a follow up phone call. Always ask for the review. The other piece to me about landing and expanding is that we've, as an industry failed miserably at, is building consistent use cases for people to try different, try us in different settings, try uh, different ways of doing, of working with us. talked to somebody the other day and was like, Ken, I have limo buses on my website. I'm like, you are not giving the corporation a use case of why they would want to put their people in your limo bus. You're selling the product, you're selling the vehicle, and that's not what works. Sell the experience. So land and expand to me is always letting them know other ways that we can serve their needs. Asking the questions. Do you have a sales organization? Absolutely. Tell me something. How do you keep 'em motivated? How do you keep them, how do you reward them at the end of the month? we do these contests. We do this. What do you think about us providing a night out for them to top golf? We're gonna put them in a limo bus. I can't provide alcohol, but you can bring it on if you want or if you don't wanna do that, I'll set up refreshments and snacks. What do you think about that? So the land and expand is letting everybody know what we do and how we can serve them best. Um, there's a big thing in the indu in our industry about, well, we provide service in 600 cities. Terrific. Nobody gives a shit when they're reading that on your website. Tell me, Julia, do you have any travel coming up? Personal? How about any personal professional travel coming up? You know, my husband and I are going over to Europe this summer. Can I make a suggestion? Where are you landing? Let me price something out. I'm, it'll be a one secure transaction because now you won't have to give your credit card to anybody overseas. I'm gonna take care of this for you. So again, the land and expand, it's about maximizing the lifetime value of that customer. And you're not spending anymore to get another prospect through the door, you're se it's the axiom of selling one person five times versus spending the money to develop five leads and sell them once. It just makes all the sense in the world. Um, as we finish up, couple of things. How do you feel about chatbots online quoting tools and the the thought process that business is trying to replace, the interaction between the human beings on the sales process.

Julie Thomas 55:12

Well, I think the genie's outta the bottle for certain things. Um, I, I, I mean, I think they're here to stay. There's no winding that back. Um, I think you have to look at the buyer's experience, and the reality is, in some cases, salespeople have not added value to the buyer's experience. And that's why all of a sudden, hey, if I can do a self-service automated solution, it's better for me because the salespeople aren't adding value. So I think you really have to look at what are the things that can be automated and what are the things that, the buyer does expect to be able to self-serve? Then where can you add value, um, over time? And, um, but I think chat, chat bots, uh, you know, they're not going away.

Ken Lucci 56:09

They're, they're not, but you know, they can't, they're also not the panacea. Um, and, and to me, if you think that the, that the automated, once the lead comes in and they request a quote, if you think three emails is gonna increase your closing without human interaction, you're wrong. I mean, I can say case by case by case where somebody goes on a website, fills out a form, they may get an automated price. But you can increase your closing ratio by 30 to 40% by interacting on a human level right then and there. Right. Not being intrusive. Hey, I, I saw you ask for service to the airport. Do you have a few minutes? You know, do you have a few minutes or, I saw you requested service in a Sprinter for five hours, uh, to go out next Thursday night. Do you have a few minutes so that I can understand what, what you're trying to do? Because I see so many operators that are so many businesses in general, they, they're, they're going to Google, they're doing Google, PPC ads. They're going to, they're gonna automate their entire sales process. And what happens is they're generating leads, but they, the sales, the closing ratios are, are terrible and leads are dropping on the floor. So I.

Julie Thomas 57:25

Yeah, I mean, I, I think that's, i, I, I don't think a hundred percent automated process is gonna serve the buyer well. 'cause buyers make mistakes all the time and they buy the wrong stuff for the wrong reason. So the second we take the human element out of that, I think the buyer is at risk. Some of those buyers won't recognize that until they get burned.

Ken Lucci 57:49

And then they'll write you a shitty review because they

Julie Thomas 57:51

it's never their fault. It's always our

Ken Lucci 57:53

no. No, buddy.

Julie Thomas 57:55

but, I do think that's the problem with, with some of that, it, it assumes that I've got, that I know with a hundred percent certainty exactly what my needs are and I am self-selecting what those are. And the reality is, most of the time we're the questions we out ask. Help the buyer better, gain better insight to what those needs really are

Ken Lucci 58:25

I.

Julie Thomas 58:25

that they are selecting the right options for

Ken Lucci 58:27

Correct especially on the more comp in our industry, on the more complex moves. Right. I always say tell people, you know, once I've chosen a Marriott, uh, you know, JW Marriott or Ritz Carlton, that's where I wanna stay. I really don't wanna talk to anybody. Okay? But if I'm having a meeting at the Ritz Carlton, Pentagon City, I want understand what rooms they have available for that service. So I think it tech is two, two things. First of all, the tech in our industry is terrible. It's, we've, we've had 15 years now thereabouts to catch up with Uber, and we've not even taken the first steps. So we've taken, we've taking advantage, or excuse me, not taking advantage of the ordering and logistics, um, technology that now the millennials expect. They, they do everything on an app. We've done, we've done a terrible job at that. So I preach that I want to have all of, I want the industry to move towards all vanilla ice cream reservations online after you've created the relationship, after you've opened up the account. So talk to us about, in, in closing, talk to us about if, if you're a sale, if you're a, a small business owner, how do you yourself, if you are the guy that's answering the phone and taking rides or answering the phones and dispatching, how do you avoid letting the noise of your business stop you from learning these skills?

Julie Thomas 59:51

Well, you have to be intentional. You have to, you have to recognize that if you are not growing your skillset and your mindset, you will become irrelevant in today's tech enabled world, but you, it has to be a priority because let's face it, we're all busy. Our days all get away from us.

Ken Lucci 1:00:17

Yep.

Julie Thomas 1:00:18

But the things that I prioritize are the things that get done. And to me that's, you know, I think time management is a bunch of hogwash, right? You don't manage time, you prioritize. And for me, my priorities are on my calendar

Ken Lucci 1:00:35

Yep.

Julie Thomas 1:00:36

and I time block things. And if I don't, if they're not on my calendar, there's a good chance they won't get done. So I manage my priorities by making sure I'm putting time on them on my calendar. I saw a woman interviewed yesterday on one of the morning shows, and she had gone through a massive career change. And she talked about the, the day that she recognized that what she was doing was not in alignment with her values. And she did that by color coding her calendar. And so, you know, red was work activities, green was faith-based activities, blue was family activities. And she said, I looked at my calendar and, and the two most important priorities in my life were my family and my faith, and my calendar was a hundred percent read with work.

Ken Lucci 1:01:34

Absolutely.

Julie Thomas 1:01:35

And she said, I had that visual. And that's what led me to make the decision that I was gonna change my priorities. I think we all have to look at what our priorities are, and if your priorities are staying on top of your game, you gotta calendar it into your calendar.

Ken Lucci 1:01:55

No, no question.

Julie Thomas 1:01:56

when are you gonna learn?

Ken Lucci 1:01:57

Yeah. And, and dealing with small business people, it, it's a little bit challenging because they look at one box every day. They go, they open one door and they look inside that room, and that's their whole life. And I usually, I usually find that it's not the market that's the problem, it's their mindset. We've always done it this way. And we're, we are in a commodity. We can't sell value. And that to me is the completely wrong mindset. I don't believe that anything is a commodity. I can hire a painter to paint my house, right? And he can literally drive up in a, in a shitbox pickup truck. Or I can find someone that I trust who understands that I don't want to do this again next year. I want you, I wanna understand the best way to do this. The result is the same good looking house, right? Clean painted house. But am I gonna have to do this again? Am I making a mistake here? And I think you only do that with selling value. I, I think you're only doing that by learning what's most important to your client.

Julie Thomas 1:02:57

So one of our large corporate clients is Kimberly Clark Professional,

Ken Lucci 1:03:03

Oh gosh, sure.

Julie Thomas 1:03:04

and they come to us for value selling. Now, for those of you who, who don't know what Kimberly Clark professional sells, toilet paper, Kleenex, paper towels, and soap to places that have public restrooms, arenas, hotels,

Ken Lucci 1:03:22

yep,

Julie Thomas 1:03:23

airports,

Ken Lucci 1:03:24

yep.

Julie Thomas 1:03:26

they focus on value.

Ken Lucci 1:03:29

Right.

Julie Thomas 1:03:30

They're not. And, and, and you probably don't want to use the lowest cost toilet paper or tissue in your life, but if we can help Kimberly Clark compete on value selling paper towels and toilet paper, I think we can help the transportation industry.

Ken Lucci 1:03:49

a hundred percent. And that's per, that is a perfect segue into thank you so much for doing this, but I want you to tell people how to, first of all, how to get the book and the second of all, how do they do, how does a small business person best way to get in touch with you and do business with you?

Julie Thomas 1:04:05

Great. I'm going to give you four pieces of information. First of all, you can find me on LinkedIn, Julie Thomas, value Selling Associates. I am not hard to find. Please connect with me on LinkedIn. I'd love to hear from you. Number two, you can buy my book on Amazon, Barnes and Noble. Any, any place where you buy, buy your books. It is the power of value selling. The gold standard for driving revenue and creating customers for life. Um, and then, um, I'm gonna give you two websites. the website that serves our B2B corporate clients is value selling.com, and tons of resources on there. Uh, we also have a podcast. There's all kinds of information on there, but the, the website for the program that we created for entrepreneurs and individual sales reps is called Grow, G-R-O-W-I-S-T, grow us.com, and you'll find information about our online program for individual sellers.

Ken Lucci 1:05:16

You know, and I, I honestly, I never endorse or recommend every time I've done it for like digital marketing companies or, you know, we vet bookkeepers, we, we, we recommend them. But anytime I do a recommendation, I, I risk getting burned. But I will tell you, your book moves me so much and, and dovetailed into my daily conversations with operators who said to me, I can't go up on my price. My competitors are too low priced. I can't go up on my price. The national network is, is much lower price than I do. And I would say, it's not your market, it's not your competitors, it's your mindset and it's your process. If you're leading with price, you're losing. And it really resonated with me. And listen, I'm 60 years old, I've been selling a lot of stuff, and I, I was an operator. And when you're talking about the most, getting you from place to place on the most important days, the most important events of your life or your career, you can't focus on low price, but you have to find a way to differentiate value, and you do it by the selling value process. So, Julie Thomas, thank you so much for agreeing to do this. I know a lot of business people have books on the market. I had a book that's not even readable, but your book really is, to me, the best investment these people could make. And it's also visit growers.com, and that's for small business people, small businesses and solopreneurs. And I, I think it's the best possible thing they could do for their businesses. So thank you so much, um, for agreeing, and I hope to talk to you again soon.

Julie Thomas 1:06:59

My pleasure, Ken. Thank you for having me. Have a great day.

Ken Lucci 1:07:03

All right, terrific. Thanks, Julie.

1:07:07

Thank you for listening to the ground transportation podcast. If you enjoyed this episode, please remember to subscribe to the show on apple, Spotify, YouTube, or wherever you get your podcasts. For more information about PAX training and to contact James, go to PAX training.com. And for more information about driving transactions and to contact Ken, Go to driving transactions.com. We'll see you next time on the ground transportation podcast.