James Blain: 0:26

Hello everybody and welcome back to another episode of the Ground Transportation Podcast. Now I'm gonna share with you guys before this episode, Ken and I were sitting here talking, figuring out kind of what we wanted to go over and what we wanna talk about today. And this term came into existence. We call it the Uber dream. And so we wanted to take an episode to talk about what is the uber dream? Why do people go and drive for rideshare? Why do you see so many of those people getting in there? And then how many of'em actually stick? What does that look like? What's kinda that state? So we thought it would be a great episode to kind of talk about what that looks like. And Ken, you are the absolute stats numbers. You have them down to a science. So why don't we just start with the stat that I already know you have. How many of these people that buy the Uber dream, I guess we'll call it and go drive for them? How many of them actually stay there and keep chasing the dream?

Ken Lucci: 1:20

Well, it is interesting to me that Uber will tell you there's 1.5 million people on their net, on their platform, and, but when you really drill down to it, you and you look at their analyst reports and you. read through some of the financial reports that people talk about as far as their stock is concerned. They have a attrition problem with their drivers. That's almost 90%. For example, a driver that, that si, that signed on to the signed up for the app in Jan to be a driver in January of 2024, 90% of them are not active January of 2025. They don't last a year. And so they have a massive recruiting problem.

James Blain: 2:03

Now, let

Ken Lucci: 2:04

never, it's never ending.

James Blain: 2:07

And it's funny because you know, a lot of people tell you we've got a recruiting problem in our industry. But I think what we see in our world that's a little different is for us it's finding them and selling them the dream, so to speak. The number one thing that I hear when I'm working with companies is that the trouble is typically not getting people to stay. It's getting people in the door, getting them to come and to want to actually do that. And I think a big part of that and kinda the reason we came with that term, Uber Dream, is I think one of the big selling points, and I think it's rideshare in general, right, is there seems to be this thought of you can make all this money, but unlike our world, which is predominantly an employee model because of the way these guys are structured, a lot of things that we come to deal with every day, like fuel cost, maintenance, cost, all those things. I don't know that I've ever seen any ride share platform. Talk about that or advertise that, or even provide any kind of training in there. Have you ever seen anything like that? I haven't seen it.

Ken Lucci: 3:13

Okay. So through, through throughout the history of business, there's always been someone out there selling the dream. When I was a kid, it was multi-level marketing. Okay. When I was a dream when I was a kid, it was I don't wanna mention any names, but multi-level marketing. The first guy through the door was supposed to make a killing. He was gonna make, you know, it's, it's like a pyramid scheme, but it's all, it's, it's, and especially in the, in, in the sales game, when you're looking for it to be a sales professional, it's always, there's some selling of the dream. There's some industry. That's the next big thing to me when I look at rideshare and the way they've sold it. There's a few things that are absolutely 100% not uh, intellectually honest. Okay? You can make$30 an hour working for Uber, okay? The reality is you can maybe gross$30 an hour,

James Blain: 4:12

Your revenue,

Ken Lucci: 4:13

but what you take home is something completely different. Okay? So the answer, to answer your question, have I ever seen these technology companies? Have I ever seen anything where at the end of the day, they give the person, this is what your fuel cost was, this is what your vehicle cost today, this is what your depreciation was. This is what your tire, your cost tire was. The answer is they don't, Okay. If you notice when they all, when, when Uber, the TNCs came out they all advertised by saying, you can make x an hour. And then they get caught. They get caught flatfooted. Because it wasn't true. Okay. First of all, they couldn't even make the gross an hour in many areas, but by the time you figured out what you keep it in many cases doesn't even hit minimum wage. So when you look at why these drivers sign up, I think they sign up for the, the personal freedom. They sign up with the, uh, and some of them are, I'm just gonna say it, they are not arithmetically sophisticated. They don't know math. Okay. So they don't know how much it cost them a day to run that vehicle. I, a true story guy comes to me the other day, uh, a few weeks ago, he found us on the internet and he is like, look, I wanna buy your financial course. Alright? Tell me about yourself. Well, I'm going to get into the business. I'm, I'm buying a brand new Suburban. Okay. How much are you paying for the vehicle?$78,000. Okay. What are you gonna do with it? Well, I'm gonna do Uber black. All Right. First of all, do you realize that vehicle was gonna cost you? And I actually pulled up the number. Oh, I actually talked him into a 65, a used$65,000 vehicle. Instead of that$65,000, vehicle costs$70 a day to operate, and it costs 43 cents a mile to operate. Okay? So if and not to mention the fact that the average Uber car out there does 45,000 miles a year. So you do about 20 to 25,000 miles with passenger and vehicle, and then you do another deadhead. You do at least about half that in the deadhead. So this guy's talking to me about doing a 60 month loan on a 65,000. I helped him find a used suburban. And all these get to scrape down is 1600 bucks for the down payment. And at the end of the day, by the second or third year, he's put on so many, his warranty is,

James Blain: 6:56

Oh yeah.

Ken Lucci: 6:56

for is gone. So when you, when they talk about selling the dream, I think the biggest misnomer, the dream is how much you can make an hour. And people don't realize that it's not what you make, it's what you keep. And the best Uber drivers that I've talked to, and I've talked to many of them, the best ones I've talked to, stay in a small urban area, they sp stay in a small area and they take constant rides in that small area. So what do you need? You need massive population, Right. You need a lot. You, you do need a lot of hotels. Okay, so the ones I've seen that make the most are in the heavily concentrated trafficked areas, and that's, they usually do pretty well, but there are also people that are driving the most economical vehicles.

James Blain: 7:49

I think one of the smartest things I've heard someone say is when they started looking at driving for ra, I share, they sat down and they said, what is the most fuel efficient and reliable vehicle I can get? What can I get that's gonna have the lowest cost ownership, the lowest cost per mile? And I think there's something really important worth mentioning here. Because I've got kids, right? And one of the things that the schools are not doing is they're not teaching them how to run a business. They're not teaching them personal finances. They're not teaching them any of these types of things. You know, you brought up the numbers earlier. I think one of the things that I've seen happen over and over and over is that people that are getting into kind of gig economy roles, whether it be rideshare or even, you know, GrubHub or anything like that, where they're operating as a contractor, they don't realize that unlike an employee, which is being given the tools they need to do their job. Every single thing that they could possibly need that day is being deducted from the revenue they're bringing in. You're running a small business, and in that case, even a micro business because it's yourself. And one of the things that they're doing is they're basically putting all of the control of getting it brought in, in the hands of that network, right? Whether it be Uber, whether it be, GrubHub, whether it be any of these gig economies, they're basically putting it in their hands. And I think you've really struck on something because if you don't know the cost per mile, if you don't know what's there, you don't know what your opportunity cost is gonna be. And not only that, you are also losing, like you've said, Deadheads, anytime they're sitting there, you know, I get people, well, I'll just go, I'll sit in a parking lot and I'll watch movies in between trips and do that. All right, so that's just lost time. That's time that you could be doing something else. So I think, I think one of the things that comes up for me over and over when I talk to drivers is they're looking for a way to do and be more, but there's not really a readily available path. And the one I always hear is, well, I'm gonna be their premium driver. I'm gonna be their black driver. I'm gonna be kind of in that level. I, I think in that scenario you are just stepping up into a different section of the same boat. Is it, I mean, do you agree with that,

Ken Lucci: 10:10

wait a minute, and it's a higher cost structure.

James Blain: 10:13

yeah. They're gonna have to put in more to, to hopefully make more

Ken Lucci: 10:16

okay. Well, to me, that's the second dream that Uber is selling. Okay. The first dream is, and, and I, I, I have to tell you I admire, there's a, a guy that makes a living and makes tons of money. He owns a web site called The Rideshare Guy. Okay. And his name is Harry, and he's got a podcast, but don't go to Harry's podcast, but no, only kidding. And he and he's got some pretty good stuff on his website, but honestly feel he's not, again, he's he's not being, he's being a little disingenuous. Okay. So, for example, I'm gonna read something. How does Uber Pay drivers are paid once a week. Okay. They can cash out earnings daily for a small fee. But how is the pay broken down for the drivers? it's all about the term. How much can I make? How much can I make? And when I look at the way they define it, how much does an Uber driver make an hour in the majority of markets they can quote, make, this is from his site, 15 to$20 an hour. No, you can't. That may be what you take in,

James Blain: 11:27

If you could generate that much revenue.

Ken Lucci: 11:30

that's not what you take home. It's like the guy that, that, it's like even on the chauffeur side, when someone has$150 ride and they say, I made$150 today. No, you didn't.'cause 70% of that goes to cost, just the direct cost to operate in the case of, of the Uber vehicle. Okay. Again, depending upon the car you're talking about an operating cost of the vehicle, maintenance and fuel. Maintenance and fuel alone is about 43 cents a mile. Okay? So if you are, if you buy into the first dream, which is, I'm gonna go work for Uber because I can make$30 an hour. Well, no, you, no, you can't. You can book$30 an hour, but at the end of the week, after you pay all your fuel, all of your maintenance, all of your tires, right? All of this stuff, the cost of your vehicle averages about five bucks, seven bucks an hour, right? And if it's a luxury vehicle, it, could be eight bucks an hour, so the, the first dream is I'm gonna make 25,$30 an hour. The second dream, now that I'm in, I'm not making money. It's almost like a, it's almost like, a get rich quick scheme. All I need to do is put more money in. All I need to do is put more money in and I'm gonna get a return. You know what? I'm not gonna be a regular Uber or Uber X driver. I'm gonna be an Uber black driver. So they go out and they get into debt, they get on the platform with their own vehicle. The second thing they do is, no, you know what? I'm gonna be an Uber black driver. This is what happened during the pandemic to a lot of the chauffeurs that were in our industry that got laid off. That's where you see all of the iOS in our industry. Many of them were ex shoppers that worked pre pandemic, or now they're a one car operator and they're working for multiple platforms. So, if I had, if I had to give any Uber driver advice, first of all, if you are using your own car and you get a loan on it, congratulations. You're gonna be upside down on that vehicle, probably halfway through your loan. You just, you're killing your car because the average, and just look this stuff up online. The average person drives their car 18,000 miles a year. For their regular stuff, their regular back and forth to work. But the average Uber driver drives at 45,000 miles.

James Blain: 13:57

Well, but think about it, limos turn over at what? 200?

Ken Lucci: 14:01

right? You're killing a depreciate. Say that again.

James Blain: 14:03

I said if you take a limo, when, when we think of a, you know, we think of an SUV or something in a limo 200, you know, 200,000 miles. We don't flinch at that. Right. Because you are running that back forth all the time. And it's, it's mindset. Just like you're talking about here. Because one of the things that I hear and I, you know, I obviously, I always try to support our industry, but I love talking to people that are an Uber because a lot of them are just looking for a way in. The two things I see most often is the idea of scaling that's sold to them is not the idea of scaling. That we think about where you're buying more vehicles, you're bringing on employees. For example, I talk to people all the, I dunno what it is on the west coast. I don't know what it is out in California, but if you, it seems like if you ride with anybody that has a Tesla and any kind of ride share, they are in a rental program. It's not even a lease, it's not a purchase, it's a literal rental car and they're paying like 500 I think. And, and these numbers could be outdated, but the last I heard it was 500 a week, right? So they're paying$2,000 a month to rent a vehicle that they're not getting any kind of equity anything in at all. And they're paying$2,000 a month to drive around in a vehicle that they're renting to then drive on ride share. Then what's interesting, and I, again, I don't have any way to to verify this, Ken. You might know, but what I was told is that's coming out of their paycheck,

Ken Lucci: 15:33

Yeah. It's

James Blain: 15:34

that gets Yeah, it's automatically pulled out. So any work they're doing, it's deducted outta that paycheck and then they're getting what's left over after paying to rent that vehicle and do that work

Ken Lucci: 15:46

it, doesn't make any sense. And when, and again, if you are a micro business, and the most important thing you can be as a micro business is know all of your costs, your hard costs for your vehicles, your variable costs for maintenance and fuel, and et cetera, et cetera, right? And then you hit upon something that's crucial is opportunity cost, right? So you get a driver, let, let me just throw some numbers out here that are on this ride share site. They use an example, a 26 minute ride that pays$7 and 28 cents or 28 cents a mile, 28 cents a minute, rather, you know, at the end of the day, it's, a, I'm sorry, 26 minute ride, 28 cents a minute, 8.5 miles, pays 80 cents a mile. I just told you that the average vehicle costs 40 to. 40 to 50 cents a mile to operate. So when you look at what you're being paid, if I'm an Uber driver, what I want to know is the numbers I've talked about, but you can find calculators online all day long that will tell you, if I'm driving a Toyota Prius, what is it gonna cost me per mile to operate it? And what is it gonna cost me per year, et cetera. You could do all these things. I mean, we have a calculator that's in our course that I help this guy with, and when I put it into the context of once you pay all of your expenses from the vehicle that you've got a loan on, you are really almost, you're, you're talking about minimum wage, maybe you're talking about making as much as$20 an hour. Okay, well that's for the time that you have somebody in the vehicle. You hit upon opportunity, cost or downtime. Is your time not worth anything when you are sitting waiting? Or is your time not worth anything when you're driving empty? On Facebook, I follow the, a lot of the Uber forums and I see a trip from Boston, Massachusetts to New York,$280 or$270 or whatever, and someone will take it. Okay, Now? you've gotta get back. So you've got 10 hours. So you've got five, six hours down, five, six hours back. Okay? Two 70 is not divided by five, it's divided by 10. It's, or even divided by 12 if you get caught in traffic. So when you subtract out everything that you've, all of your costs plus your opportunity costs, you're lucky if you're making minimum wage.

James Blain: 19:09

And I think, I think one of the things that surprises me, and we see it over and over is there's a big push towards the gig economy, right? I'm so tired of that term. I'm so sick of that term. We hear about all the time on the news, we hear about all the time in social media is the gig economy, right? You can get anything delivered by anyone, right? A magic stranger from the internet will bring you. You know what, if you are that magic stranger though, there is no one out there. That is on the side of the hiring for the gig economy that is at those companies. That is in a rush to break it down for you. The way we're breaking it down here, they're not in a big rush to tell you that. And it's, I see this all the time and it's kinda my favorite things. I got an email the other day, right? I started playing golf and I got an email the other day and it said, you can get this golf gear as low as this price, and it had this incredibly low price from like, there's no way you click on it and what happens, right? That is like the stripped down, like you're never gonna actually buy that. But the typical version you'd buy and use all of a sudden is like twice as expensive. But they had a really cheap version to compare it to so they could be like, it's so cheap. And I think what we see a lot of times is that kind of comes back to that dream. We see this, Hey, you've got this opportunity to make all this money. Well, yeah, you make all that.

Ken Lucci: 20:23

$30 an hour. That's, and that's the, that's the fucking problem I have with the TNCs. It's not, don't tell me, don't advertise for drivers and tell me what You can make. Okay?'cause it's not true.

James Blain: 20:41

No, it's revenue.

Ken Lucci: 20:42

No, no. We make the revenue We make the revenue. By the way, that revenue hits their top line. They take out their share, their commission, their everything. And your take home is this. But guess what? You gotta pay for your gas, you gotta pay for your insurance, you gotta pay for the vehicle, you gotta pay for all of these things that you really don't know. You don't have it written, you don't have it written out. The best drivers, Uber drivers I know are ex-business people. They're retired people, okay? They're retired people. They know their cost to a penny, down to the penny, and most of them drive. He, I met a guy, guy down in Tampa that he was saying Uber's trying to push them into electric vehicles. And he said, the problem is when the batteries are using the most juice, the most power, when the vehicle is sitting and the air conditioning is going, he says it doesn't work. So he picked me up on a hybrid and the biggest issue he had with the hybrid true story, it was eight months old and had 31,000 miles on it.

James Blain: 21:50

Yeah.

Ken Lucci: 21:51

it was brand new, but it was eight months old. The warranty was already gone on it. Okay. So no, if, if I had any advice, look, trust me when I tell you, there are certain days where I get aggravated, I'm like, I'm just gonna be an Uber driver. I don't give a shit. I just, I don't give a shit. But I, but if it were me, okay, I would investigate the rental, the rental programs that are out there and I would, before I did anything, I would do what I call a turn, the key break even how much revenue, knowing what Uber's take is, which is another story we'll get into. How much do I wanna make to break even on this rental, right? And the problem I see with the TNCs is in order to really make some decent money, you gotta be on the road 12, 14 hours a day,

James Blain: 22:41

Yeah.

Ken Lucci: 22:42

James. We come from an industry where U-S-D-O-T tells us, what, how many hours

James Blain: 22:47

That's not even, yeah. 10 hours. It's not even legal. It's not even legal. You try to do,

Ken Lucci: 22:51

wait a minute,

James Blain: 22:53

done.

Ken Lucci: 22:53

right? But wait a minute, this is what, this is what gets me 12 to 14 hours a day. And every, when I ask an Uber driver, and I really, and I follow the ones that make the most money are those people that are working 12, 14 hours a day. The problem I have with the TNCs is if it's so good, why can't, why do you constantly have to change the comp plan?

James Blain: 23:16

Wow.

Ken Lucci: 23:17

do you have to play the shell game on what, what, okay. What you're making, et cetera. And it's a race to the bottom because most people that I know have both apps and they're dual lapping leave, no leave names out of it. And the car that can get there, the first one is the one that they'll go with. Okay? So at

James Blain: 23:38

the, drivers are doing the same thing. The drivers have'em both open and whoever gives'em the trip first is who they're right. I've been in, look, I've seen guys that have two phones in the vehicle and the problem that they have and, and this is one of the big important things, right? If you start looking at, I was having a conversation with someone the other night and it revolved around DUIs and the number of DUIs and all that thing. And one of the things they brought up is if you're old enough to remember a pre-Uber time, right? And the conversation went a little like this. You know, our kids have convenience. They can call, they can get a cheap ride, they can get home. Back in the day, if you were in a place that wasn't a huge taxi, having city, you could call a taxi and they might not come. You call a taxi and you can get absolutely gouged. Or you might be somewhere where that's not even an option, right? Even if you called, they're not showing up. And now we have this new magical thing where I can summon people from the internet to come drive me at a super low cost. And the only reason that works is because you have the app, they have the control, they have everything there. So if you are driving for them, it now becomes your beholden to them and their network. But the thing that's worth noting is on the passenger side, the convenience and ability to do it is what typically makes it worthwhile. Look, if you walk out of a bar, if you walk outta a restaurant and you want to go to the other side of town and you wanna do it right that second, it is very hard to fight the convenience of

Ken Lucci: 25:08

No, you can't.

James Blain: 25:09

Internet. You can't beat that,

Ken Lucci: 25:11

Look, I was in business. I was in business when Uber as an operator. When Uber came to Tampa Bay and I, some of my best, I didn't have many, many friends on the limo side, but some of my best friends were on the taxi side and I had some good friends and they said, look, contribute some money'cause we're gonna fight this. I'm like, guys, I'll give you some money. I have no problem with it, but you're not gonna fight it. And a very good friend of mine down there, his name is Brooke, right? Owned a, a black car service in Tampa before any Uber came. And he was really, did really well with his black car service. And when Uber came in it killed him over time. I mean, he's still in business, but the business is not anywhere near it was. But I remember when we were trying to kill it, all of the politicians, when you looked at their phone, they had the Uber app on there. Uber was smart. They went to the lobbyists. First of all, they said, fuck you to the regulations, okay? Because in Tampa, Tampa Bay had a regulatory system that was pretty interesting. It was its own little fiefdom. But they came in for the first year and they basically ignored the regulators. They ignored the regulators in Tampa, the transportation authority had guns. They were all retired cops and they were working on their second pension, and the only ones that they bothered were the ones that had the licenses. Okay. So Uber was smart. They hired lobbyists. Okay. The, besides, I firmly, and I'll make a statement, I firmly believe that Uber is modern day worker exploitation. Okay? They prey on the English is the second language, okay? They prey on people by saying, this is what you can make, right? They have, there's literally nothing to help a driver understand what his true costs are. Okay. You think I, we go through it. Now in our industry with operators that are million dollar, 2 million,$3 million operators that don't look at their financials, at least most of those guys have accountants that slap'em around at the end of the year. But if you notice on, on, if you notice the TNCs and how they advertise, you know, when they lose a lot of drivers tax season,

James Blain: 28:36

Yeah,

Ken Lucci: 28:37

okay? because the day of reckoning is

James Blain: 28:39

because it

Ken Lucci: 28:39

okay, well, wait a minute. I made this and I didn't, I didn't track, I didn't track any of my mileage. There's a couple of people trying to help. It's like a cottage industry of people that do it But you would think the TNCs would do that for you. Okay, here's where you should deduct your fuel. Here's where you should deduct your oil. The worst the worst thing is, it's like anything in life. If everything goes right, you might be able to make money as an Uber driver, okay? But what happens when you get into your first accident? I, I see it on Facebook all the time, and I listen to these drivers, right? The app insurance covers you when you're on your way to a ride and when you're, when you have the passenger in the vehicle, okay?

James Blain: 29:26

the deadhead.

Ken Lucci: 29:27

not the deadhead. So when you're on your way, correct, if you haven't engaged in another trip, you're not covered. The other piece of the puzzle is the insurance companies are getting smart now. So if you're hit by an Uber car, right? They are really making it difficult when it comes to it's not mitigation, sub subrogation. So at, at the end of the day, it's all fun and games until, number one, you have an accident and you can't afford to pay the deductible, right? Because you are not making$30 an hour. And the second is you start having a major issue after warranty. I know a lot of people that, that they can't afford to fix their cars,

James Blain: 30:08

But I think it's bigger than this though. Right? And I, I see it, you know, we saw it with, even with Walmart, when Walmart tried to get their employees to do home deliveries in their own vehicle, it, we are seeing this as, and, and I see it beyond kind of our scope as the whole gig economy, right? Because in addition to Ubers, you've got your Grubhubs, right?'cause now we have food that can brought, we get deliveries. You get, yeah. I think that one of the big things that we're seeing happen is that, I think that was rideshare was just kind of the, the person that put their foot in that door. And now companies are trying to see how far they can push that and how they can do it.

Ken Lucci: 30:46

How far they could push the envelope.

James Blain: 30:48

Exactly. And look, you know, I will share when I was in high school, right? Some of you argue it wasn't that long ago, but back when I was in high school, right? We're talking 20 years ago, I had a job and I was working for a, a subcontractor to Capital One on the collection side. And the whole thing there was, we would get credit cards that would come through and that credit card would have a thousand dollars balance, but it would have a$200 credit limit on it. And that's because the second you hit that$200 credit limit, you got a over your, alright, well, you hit your credit limit. Now you get an over the limit fee. You don't pay it, you don't pay it all the way down. You're not below your limit. Now you're gonna get a fee every month that you're behind. Now your interest skyrockets. The next thing you know, you've got these thousand dollars credit cards with$200 limits and they're collecting on them. Well, what has to happen? Eventually it gets so bad that the government steps in and says, hey. You guys have gotta chill this out. This makes no sense. You're giving people$200 credit limits and then you're going after them for a thousand dollars balances When you let them go$10,$20,$30 over the credit limit and get into this place that they're at. I think we're at a point with the gig economy where no one has stepped in yet. But I think we're starting to see the same kind of snowball. And the difference here is that unlike that credit and collections industry, where once you get to that a thousand dollars balance, they're actively chasing you. What we see happen here is more of a casino effect. You see someone that gets into the gig economy, they're super excited, they're gonna make a bunch of money, they're gonna rent the car, they're gonna do this, they're gonna do that. They go in thinking they're gonna hit the jackpot. They get drained. They walk out penniless, shirtless and they've, you know, they've lost money on it and they move on to the next thing. But there's not a lot there. And I think one of the important things that's worth noting is from kind of the side of people that are wanting to start a business and do it as a career and those types of things, a lot of them don't realize that because of the fact that you're on the Uber side, Uber's controlling all of the demand. And it doesn't have to be Uber, right. It can be whatever gig economy role you're in, it is going to be really difficult when you're used to having all that given to you to then have to transition out. And I've

Ken Lucci: 33:06

So now wait

James Blain: 33:06

both sides.

Ken Lucci: 33:07

Wait a minute. Let's talk about this Let's talk about the other side of the coin. So I want to touch upon two things. One is, remind me is for the unforeseen consequences of on the economy in society. But first I'm gonna talk about, so this is a really good segue for those of You. who could see us on YouTube, I'm who can't see us on YouTube. I'm holding up the business card of a driver. This driver's name is Gerardo. I won't say his last name. And he's got an 8 1 3 area code. Last time I was in Tampa, he was an Uber driver who handed me his business card. And his business card says driver guide. Okay, now he said flat out, how long you to be here? I'm gonna be here for five days. You're staying at the International Mall. Listen, I'm always around the air. If you need me, call me. Okay? Here's the fucking problem with that. When I hire him and pay him cash, and he said I'll give you a better cash rate. Here's the problem with that. When he, I take that ride and I pay him cash, guess what? He's not on the app. Guess what's not covered? His insurance. This, the insurance is not covered. Okay? You know the law been un, the law of unintended consequences with the TNCs and the gig economy will be studied years from now. Okay? We saw a little bit of it during the pandemic when none of the people that were driving for gig or in gig economy could get any PPP money and then that had to be dealt with. But here's the problem. Listen, I firmly believe Uber, Uber at all, as they say, but at all, John, you gotta believe some of these F bombs out. This is a tough

James Blain: 34:50

Feisty today,

Ken Lucci: 34:51

you, tough subjects for me today. I firmly believe that they could double their prices, and they would still have the same amount of trips that they have. Their bottom line would be much more their top line, which they all covet. Okay? If I told you the bottom line that, Uber's bottom line without adjusted gap adjustments, non-GAAP, non-gap accounting, it's, it throws tiny bits of pennies on the bottom line. Okay? I submit to you they could double their rates. They still would have, they would have more revenue. They would actually be able to pay their drivers a living wage and they'd, they'd make more money. Okay. But you know what? They lack the fortitude to do it. They're in love with the top line revenue. They're in love with the with their quarterly reports. All of the executives are, incentivized on growth. Okay? Because we're, we are over 10 years into this and we into the gig economy, and you are 100% right? Uber started it by calling it the shared economy, the sharing economy. Okay? Until some of the, until the first two or three studies came out that said. Oh, the sharing economy is actually helping global warming. It's reducing the carbon footprint. Until the first studies came out and said, wait a minute, the average u the average person has puts 18,000 miles on their vehicle. The average Uber driver puts 45,000 on it. You're actually not, you're actually making carbon footprint worse. Okay? So they changed it to the word gig, okay? And the problem with the gig economy is the unintended consequences on society. We saw a little bit about it during the pandemic. These, there's no benefits to these people. These people are not feeding the unemployment system, okay? They're not feeding unemployment. They're not feeding their social security if they're not smart enough to figure out their cost.'cause nobody's really telling them on it, Okay. They're not feeding their retirement, they're just gonna go off to the next thing. The worst thing is if they get hurt. If they really get hurt they're shit outta luck. So the overall cost on society includes not paying into the social safety net. That's number one. Number two, with with, I firmly believe that it's, it's it, and this is a study that'll probably never be done, but I think the TNCs actually make the congestion and the throwaway vehicles even worse. It's cutting down the life cycle of vehicles and there's more, if you look at the junk business is booming. The other piece of this puzzle that's gonna come up, they're all pushing EVs. What's gonna happen to these EV batteries? What's gonna happen to the batteries? You know, but, but here's the reason why I doubt it'll get fixed. The lobbyists and liberals love cheap trips.

James Blain: 38:01

But I think it's deeper than that, Ken. Because one of the things, and I, I don't want to take us too far off the rails, but the gig economy has permeated beyond our industry. You know, obviously the Uber gets thrown around, you know, Lyft, all these, all these, all the TNC names Yeah. Fiverr is a gig economy. I will tell you what, so I have a, so I have a family member, I won't out her and, and see who it was, but she has some Airbnbs and she went and she bought some appliances for them from a reputable big brand name store, right? Reputable, big brand name store. And they were set to be delivered. She gets a call from the delivery guy and all of a sudden a sheriff is talking on the phone. The delivery guy was pulled over. The sheriff said, no, he won't be coming in. What happened? They had used a gig economy type app, and apparently what they did at that big box store is they would put out on the app that there needed to be a delivery. Someone would then accept it, sound familiar, they'd accept the trip, they'd come pick it up, they'd make the delivery. Well, guess what, as we've seen happen before. Background checks weren't done right. It was a stolen Ryder truck with no lease, no nothing. They had stolen the truck. They were using the delivery as cover. So they were doing deliveries to cover their movement in the stolen truck, full of drugs, full of guns. And thank God it just happened to be a small town delivery and they got pulled over, or it literally would've been her alone with them at her house getting a quote unquote delivery with a truck full of guns and drugs. Now is that common? No, probably not common, but the point here being this gig economy idea of we can take this work that we would before have to have our own trucks and our own drivers and pay them and take care of that. This idea is now I've got a really low cost, high convenience thing. I've got a delivery today. I can get on the app, I can put it out. Someone will come get it, someone will do it. It's the exact same model that we're seeing and it's the exact reason that companies like Walmart were so successful. When I was growing up, the big deal is everybody was mad at Walmart'cause they were putting mom and pop outta business. Guess what? Their prices were way cheaper. They had everything in one place. It was super convenient. People were willing to accept the hit in quality and the fact that it's a lower quality product. Because of that, we're seeing the same thing play out through

Ken Lucci: 40:32

But there's a big difference though. Walmart is paying their, their people as employees. Okay. And I know if I, if I choose to work at Walmart and, you know, seeing the, the all of humanity walk through the door, I know I'm getting paid X amount of dollars. Okay. And the risk I took, I, there's no expense to me to do that work, except driving from my house to the Walmart parking lot. The problem I have is using my assets, using my expenses, using everything, and not being truthful, if you will, about what I'm going to make. The, to me, if the biggest issue is to me is if it was such that you could make even$20 an hour, why are they fighting paying minimum, minimum wage in cities? W why are they fighting it and why? I, I mean, listen, don't get me wrong. They, you have deep discounts on oil changes. You have deep discounts on tires. They're trying as best as they possibly can, but it's the unsophisticated driver unsophisticated person that takes his means of conveyance and runs it into the ground so that. Uber's, CEO can make X amount of dollars. It's not, to me it's, it's, there's no win-win there. It's a hooray for me and it's a hooray for me. And screw you. It's the reason why they, they constantly have to constantly have to recruit and train and I don't know where it's

James Blain: 42:09

But wait, they can't train. You bring up a very fun aspect. Right. And but it's funny'cause if you teed us up, you actually, you must have been reading my mind over here because the other cost, and this is one that never gets talked about, is that they can't actually train drivers. Because of the fact that these are 10 99 employees, they're

Ken Lucci: 42:28

Correct. they can't control a

James Blain: 42:30

control or direct. So the problem with that becomes now you have someone that they cannot actually directly train. Well, what does that mean in our world? Most importantly and biggest for me, defensive driving and actually spending that much time on the road and not having safety training.

Ken Lucci: 42:48

Safety, it's a hundred percent.

James Blain: 42:50

It is I and I, it's so hard to get people to understand, look, when you're driving to work, when you're driving to school, when you're driving to go get groceries, when you're doing all these things, you're at risk. Your risk of having an accident is there. The easiest way to increase ease any kind of risk is to increase time doing the risky behavior. The more time you spend driving, the higher your chances of an accident. How do you mitigate that? In our world, how do we mitigate that with customers? My whole life, my whole career has revolved around if we know we're engaged in spending more time on the road than anyone else, we have to have them engaged in doing more training and making them more aware and better drivers than anyone else in the road. You can't do that in any kind of gig economy role. Why? Because you can't direct them to do training. You can't force them to do ongoing training. You can't do that because now all of a sudden you get an employee territory. All of this, before we even talk about. Customer service, customer interaction. And guess what? If you're on the lower end of Uber and you're dealing with the cheaper rides, now you have disruptive, drunk, unruly passengers. Guess what? Can't have training on how to deal with that either because a 10 99 you're not able to do that. There's so many things that come up.

Ken Lucci: 44:10

no. People are like, well, they're listening to this. And they're like I already know how to drive. You know? It's a lot different. You driving yourself versus being in control and in charge of, of human, other human lives and passengers. Where was I traveling? I was traveling up to Boston to do a Yeah, I was with you. I was doing the TTA thing, so I was

James Blain: 44:30

house.

Ken Lucci: 44:31

up. And when I got off the highway in front of me, there's, I could see it was an Uber driver.'cause there was one driver, one the driver was in the front and there were, there was one person in the back. He literally disembarked the passenger in traffic. He disembarked the passenger. He disembarked the passenger at the red light. Okay. But here's the problem. There was a right lane. Okay? He was in the middle. There was a right lane. The passenger opened up the door and there was a car going by. It's stuff like that that, it may be a little thing, but in your, when you're in the chauffeur space, point blank. I cannot and under any circumstances, disembark you into traffic. Okay? Nevermind. If you have two passengers in the back, one opens up. the door into traffic. What's your job as the driver stop that from happening? Always disembark on the curb. I think that at the end of the day, the problem that we have here with the TNC model, which is actually pretty perplexing to me because when you look back at the industrial revolution in the country, and I'm a his half-ass historian, you know, they had child labor laws, right? They had the growth of unions to, they had the child labor laws that basically said, no, they've gotta be under over 16 or over 18, and in some cases over 21 if they're working around machinery. And then they had basically unions to give you the eight hour work week, 40 hour, excuse me, eight hour work day, 40 hour work week. And it really protected and gave birth to the middle class of America. It really did. Okay so my question to you is. Where do we go from here in the gig economy when I don't have a W2? And you and I both, we've had this discussion. It costs more money to borrow when you don't have a W2 drive, a Don W2 job. Okay? E even in, in my case, I don't have any loans, but, the end of the year, I'm taking down 15, 20, 30, 10 90 nines to my tax guy, right? So where do we go with people that don't have W2 income that's predictable and for them to actually have a personal positive personal balance sheet? How did they save money? How did they possibly have the ability to buy a house? I submit to you that, you know, there's the, there's a lower working class in the country that are doing these gig jobs that will, and sadly a lot of'em are first generation into. Country. And some of them may even be illegal, but they're minorities. And I think It's totally taking advantage. And I think as a society, I, have a real problem with it. To me it's just like child labor laws. It's just like the factory workers that back in the day were working 16, 18 hours, days and losing an arm because they fell asleep on the assembly line. So what do you do?

James Blain: 47:31

but a lot of this is application of the rules, right? You know, if you start, if you wanna talk about historian, right? If you go back and you look at the 401k. 401k is actually named after a section of the tax code. It's not a random numbered letter. 401k is a section of the tax code that allowed for the creation of a 401k when they put that together, right? If you go watch the interviews with the guy that was responsible for that, his plan was not that we would get rid of pensions in the country and that we would all be responsible for having our own part that we're putting into, we're basically taking our retirement in our own hands. That was not the point. That was not what he was trying to do. That's the application of what happened as a result of that section of tax code. And I think if you start looking back, you know, one of the things that comes up when, you know I think of hairdressers, right? A lot of hairdressers have been 10 90 nines forever, right? They rent a chair. That's not new. What we're seeing, and I think what's happened here is you have an explosion in 10 90 nines.

Ken Lucci: 48:35

In Every industry. Yeah.

James Blain: 48:36

industry. I would love to see some sort of education on that. Right? And this is, if any of the rideshare people are listening or any of the gig economy, people are listening, look, you can say, Hey, you can make up to this, but you need to take out and say, Hey, this is a realistic take home. And then as part of your onboarding, you need to direct them to resources and say, Hey, you know, you're, you're gonna be working with us. You're gonna be a 10 99 for us. That's great. Here's a resource that's gonna help you manage your numbers. Here's a resource that's gonna help you actually take care of yourself. Because one of the things I learned early on, I mentioned, back in the day, I worked in the credit and a collection industry as a kid in high school. The very few of those companies were set up to where they wanted to retain people. It was a revolving door industry where they would just fill seats, right? Nobody wants to call and tell somebody

Ken Lucci: 49:26

And, and how, I mean, how, how long can you do that without it wearing on

James Blain: 49:31

And that's the kind of where I'm going is I think we're at a point where you have to figure that out. The other thing, and I, I think this is where I have seen the association step up. I have seen, you know, obviously yourself, myself I think there is a subset of people that they're looking at Uber as a job, and that's probably the majority of them are saying, Hey, I want a job where I can turn the app on. I can set my own hours, I can work when I want, when I make money, when I want, I do it all on my time. That's super appealing, but I think you probably have a small subset of that, right? Maybe 10% that are saying, Hey, this might be where I started, but I want to have my own fleet. I want to have my own company. I want to do my own thing now. Sorry, ride share companies. I know you don't want that. I know that's not your dream, right? I know That's not who you want. You don't want the competition, you don't want that. But I think having people. Able to find resources like their local state associations, like the National Limousine Association places that they can go learn what it's gonna take to make that leap and if they wanna do it, are huge. I know, and this is a hot topic button, there's been discussion of unionizing within the ride share companies and trying to set up unions and trying to do those types of things. And heck, at one point, you know, Starbucks has had, there are certain places where there's unions even for baristas in Starbucks because, you know, the conditions were getting to a point where it didn't make sense. And the point of the union is to protect the employee, to protect the worker in this case if you're not an employee. But I think what we really have to find is how do you find that happy medium where you're able to get it done? And

Ken Lucci: 51:17

Let me tell you where it starts. Let me tell you where it starts. It starts with intellectual honesty on the behalf of the people that run Uber by saying, look, you're driving a Toyota Prius. This is what it costs to operate that vehicle. This is what we're gonna charge for rides. The, these, the ride, the cost of these rides is actually it's actually insulting. Okay. It's to the driver. It, it just, you, when I look at, even at, when I look at, um, the ride share guy, oh. They're paying X number, 78 cents a minute, uh, uh, 78 cents a mile. Intellectual honesty would say, if you're doing this, this, and this, your Toyota Prius is costing you X to operate. Okay? YY amount of time. Deadheading, it would be intellectual honesty. I mean, we are past the point where the apps are cool. The everything is an app now, okay, if, if. I think I hate to say it, but the executives at Uber have theirs. They're getting paid disgusting amounts of money. You wanna talk about income inequality, A OC. Okay? That's where it is. But intellectual honesty would be, we're not going to charge, and we're not gonna be in a bidding war with the other, right? We're not gonna be lower than the other one We are gonna pay you a living wage and we're gonna pay, our rides are gonna cost X amount of dollars or X amount of, cents, right? And we're gonna un, we're going to publish what it costs to be in a Prius to be in this, that, and the other thing, I know guys that have, they got into it for Uber Black, and you know these guys too, they get into it for Uber Black. And because there's no Uber Black ride, they're gonna take an Uber X trip. Okay. At the end of the day, you might as well hand the guy the money and stay home because you're not making anything. The other thing I hear a lot is I got into Uber black and I'm gonna, I'm gonna get my own private, private customers now. Uber Black. Let's be clear. You have to have commercial insurance, no question about it. Okay? But you have private clients. You are not permitted to go in and outta the airport when you're not on the app. You're not a TNC driver at that point, you're a livery driver. Okay?

James Blain: 53:40

And most of those guys are trying to poach rides. And guess what? If your whole thing is, I'm gonna meet people on Uber and I'm gonna give'em my card and I'm gonna take that business, right? You have just proved no one in the actual business can trust you because everybody's gonna assume that's what you're gonna do. If you have their client in the car and they send you a trip,

Ken Lucci: 54:01

I mean, and

James Blain: 54:01

not a viable

Ken Lucci: 54:02

This guy's a perfect example. I'll give you a great cash rate. I felt like saying, dude, you are Dr. You're driving a, a fri suburban that you probably costs you$1,200 a, a month and you just get paid 18 bucks to take me to the airport. You know, at the end of the day, I, I feel bad because you, you probably, your cost structure is such, it was probably 15 bucks or 12 bucks to get you there. But I, I have no issue and, and I don't feel bad because Uber is creating this issue on their own, where they're creating capacity that's, stealing from them. Okay. And they wanna, why? By the way, Uber Black is only about fi about 5% of their revenue from what I've been able to ascertain. They're not straight up. Uber is not straight up about any of their data. They're just not. Okay. They are about their financials. And their stock price. And, we are profitable if you, if it's a, if it's non-gap accounting, et cetera, et cetera. But when you look at the, when the actual metrics the fluctuation of what they pay, they have to have all these contests, and we're doing this and we're doing that, and we have all these different kinds of, you, if you do X amount ofri rides, you're gonna get to this status. Why don't you just, why don't you just pay me a living wage instead of obfuscating Okay. And playing the game. So at the, you know, at the end of the day, I do think it's gonna become a critical point where they're not gonna be able to attract, a certain level of driver. That's why we've been able, as an industry, to continue to do well. But at some point, does the pool of drivers disappear where they just, I mean, I've seen'em on Facebook say, we're gonna, we're gonna go on strike. D does a union ever take over?

James Blain: 55:52

So a couple things. I think first and foremost, you have a massive opportunity if you are a legacy car operator, right? If you are a limo operator, if you're on the chauffeur services space, one, you've got an incredible hiring tool and that if you understand the way they're marketing the dream and you take a play outta their book and look at what they're using to attract people and then are actually able to deliver on that and say, Hey, you have a car that's paid for, we provide the vehicle, we will pay you. You don't, you get paid for downtime, you get paid for waiting. You, right? You can then you use that to attract more talent to then take in the top talent. So one, I think you've got a massive opportunity there.

Ken Lucci: 56:37

Oh, if I was an operator today, if I was an operator, I would be trolling The airports. A hundred percent. I agree with you and I laugh when some of the operators like, well, I won't hire an Uber driver. Good for you. Because it, all you need to look at is, does he have a clean DMV and does he have a clean criminal record? He already proves he likes to drive. He already proves he likes to work long hours. And that, you know that. I agree with you. It's a great pool of people to uplift into the space.

James Blain: 57:07

Yeah. But that's kinda like saying, oh man, there's this supermodel who's absolutely incredible. But and she wants to date me, but I won't even talk to her.'cause she dated some guy I hated 20 years ago. Dude,

Ken Lucci: 57:18

You know, every time I try to go up to a supermodel, that never happens to me, but that's okay.

James Blain: 57:22

Yeah. A younger version of me might have pulled that off, but No, I, here's the thing. Here's the thing. I think what happens a lot of times is that. When it comes to business, you, and we've talked about this on the financial side, we talked about this on the training side. You can't let your emotions and your feelings cloud good business judgment. If you have someone that started on rideshare you don't wanna look at it as, oh, they drove they, they rideshare. Here's the thing. Look, I, when they, he sends scouts to try and get top players, there are teams that have walk-ons, right? Even in the highest level

Ken Lucci: 57:59

Oh, they, they, they're sending him to high school.

James Blain: 58:01

Yeah, but there's guys that walk on, I grew up with, you know, an awesome football player living right behind our house. That was probably one of the smartest people financially I've ever met. Instead of going out and buying a mansion and buying in all these cars, he had a modest house. He had two nice cars, and guess what? That's'cause he was a walk-on. He showed up one day at tryouts, he got on the team and he knew that, that that train could come to a stop at any point. So he was smart about what he did with his money. He went, he got an education, he did that. Just because somebody works for a rideshare company, just'cause someone starts there doesn't mean they're not viable. Doesn't mean they're not intelligent, doesn't mean they're not

Ken Lucci: 58:41

But no to, but to your, to credits to what you do, you have to teach them the right, the, you have to train them from day one. And you almost have to say, I want you to erase everything about what you know about driving except the safety piece. I want you to arra. This is not the point A from point B is not the only reason the passenger gets in our car. there. are all of these subtleties. There are all of these reasons why people prefer the chauffeur experience. You have to deliver that. Now I, I won't say the company, but. Down in Tampa, there was a fantastic company that was extraordinary and It was well known. Black suit, gold ties, unbelievable five star reviews when the last owner owned it. And now they cut the pay of the drivers and now all they're attracting is, is, uh, rideshare drivers that are part-time and they're racing off of the Rideshare app to take a ride with this company. And there's just no difference. And I, I, I do think that's an, a problem with our industry where you have to take the Rideshare driver as a jumping off point and your goal is to take them to the pro level. That's your job. And if you yourself don't get that hire packs because they'll get it for you. It's the difference between I'm not gonna hire somebody who's a chambermaid at Motel six. Look, I. They understood the cleaning process, but now you have to teach them the Ritz Carlton way. Okay? And that's 50 subtle things. It's the tiny touches with everything that we do. So I wanna, I'm gonna tee up the next episode that you and I are gonna do, because it has to do with Uber black drivers. If I had to give, this is the same advice I would give any single car operator. Any one car operator, okay? Because they're all breaking into the industry by being Uber black drivers and trying to get up into the space. The first thing I would tell you to do is know your costs. You can go online and you can go, how much does it take me per mile to operate a Chevrolet Suburban? You can also come to driving transactions. We have a free calculator, but if you know your costs, okay, that's a perfect place to start. The other thing I'll tell you is know your worth. Know your worth. you think, if you are an Uber driver, an Uber black driver, and you think, I'm gonna take a$300 trip and it's gonna take me from Boston out to Springfield, probably at that point, Albany know your worth. You're going out there for 300 bucks, 300 bucks, you're coming back for nothing. Okay? So I do think it, you have to learn the math of what you're doing. You have to also look at your opportunity cost, and I hate to say it, you have to plan for your worst day.

James Blain: 1:01:39

Yeah.

Ken Lucci: 1:01:41

What happens when you have an accident? What happens when somebody pukes in your car? What happens when somebody comes in and they've got illegal substances? I mean, some of the stuff I, see on Facebook almost should be like tax de cab confessions. You remember that? Show it. Some of the stuff is just, but you know what I feel bad for? I feel bad for the person that's doing that as their full-time job. Okay, because, you know, they can't afford to put tires on the car because they've gone 30,000 miles and, and they don't have the money for tires. Or they bought a brand new car thinking that they were gonna make$40 an hour or$50 an hour with it for a, a bigger car. And their mileage is such now that the car is under warranty and they're underwater for their vehicle, payments. So I would say before you, you really get into it, is investigate what your costs are. I wouldn't use my car for it and that's another subject for another day, but I wouldn't use my personal car for it if I, it, I just wouldn't, because I don't want random people in the back of my car. I would probably investigate what it would be to, to lease a, a hybrid or maybe I have a second car if that's what I'm gonna do with it. But I, I think it's, if, if you don't wanna be exploited. Know your worth. Know what it costs you to operate that vehicle. Know what it costs you to have that vehicle per day. And I will share, there are a lot of smart guys that do ride share in urban areas that have got it knocked. And they all tell me very small cer, very small area, constant work, et cetera, et cetera. But you have to crack the code. And I do think it's like the pyramid where the, the first people in make the most money or it's like it and then the rest of the people lose their shirt. It's like you say, it's the casino effect.

James Blain: 1:03:38

I and, and to that point, I would say in my mind, I have some caveats, right. I think if you decide, I think I wanna be an Uber driver, it probably makes sense for you to use your own car for a week and say, I'm gonna do one week on Uber with my own car. I'm gonna get the numbers and I'm gonna see if I like this job. Okay? Because you are, and this is, this is my view on the entire gig economy. In the gig economy, you are starting a business without realizing it. You are accidentally starting a micro business. And so if you do it in your own car for a week and you realize you hate it, hey, you just saved yourself from investing and trying to do it, but you really want to approach it kind of in that same manner of, Hey, if I'm thinking about doing it, I'm gonna do it for a week and I'm gonna see if I like it. If I don't like it, I'm also gonna look at the numbers and see what I can learn there. And then from that point, I'm gonna figure out what are my next steps and how do I start this as a micro business? Hindsight being what it is, that's how I would do it.

Ken Lucci: 1:04:43

And listen, I, I, there are ton, tons of great websites out there. The Rideshare Guru, rideshare guy, the Facebook groups that are out there and I would say to you, just watch the pitfalls. Okay. Um, the other day I was at the car wash and there were two guys that were washing an Uber car. I said, oh, which one of you drives for Uber? Well, we both do. Well, whose car is this his? Okay. You realize that the insurance is not gonna cover that second guy.

James Blain: 1:05:11

Right.

Ken Lucci: 1:05:12

Okay. So I'm not gonna get into a discussion with somebody like that, I mean, in a car wash. But there are a lot of pitfalls to it. And I do think the insurance thing is a massive, you know, kind of groundswell effect on, obviously on our side. But I do think on the TNC side, the, the, the, that's gonna become more and more of a problem as well. Some actuary, there's enough data now that some actuary's gonna come out and say, you know what, we're not gonna insure this. And you know, they're gonna have to make their own, they're gonna have to figure out their own, their own elements, their own insurance elements.

James Blain: 1:05:51

Yeah, but I would, I would take this a step further. I would tell you that if you are genuinely thinking about it, unless you want, you know, and, and different strokes for different strokes different idea on the black car side versus the Uber side. If your whole thing is I want to be able to drive when I want, do what I want, set the schedule, do whatever I need there, Uber's gonna make sense. But if your thing is, I wanna be able to drive a nice vehicle and I want to be able to provide customer service and I want to be able to really serve somebody and I want to be able to have the status and I want to be able to be in that role. I look rideshare is not gonna make sense. And even at the premium, even at the black car level I'm sorry. You're better off becoming an independent operator and trying to find, and this is again we're closing out. This is gonna be a whole nother episode at that point. It's, you need to find your own customers. You need to build your own book of business and you need to not be beholden to other people controlling the customer and you being completely dependent on them sending you the work. Because God forbid anything happens in that chain, whether it's your fault or not, you are out on the street. And so I think that's kind of the big thing here on the other side of that is you got a lot more runway when you are in that. Other side of it, whereas in my mind, unless you're just looking for a job where you can set your own hours and you just want it to be a job, that for me is where rideshare gig economy, that part of it makes sense. You just don't want to have to be locked in.

Ken Lucci: 1:07:30

Until you have to pay. Until you have to pay taxes on money that

James Blain: 1:07:33

Yeah. And that's where you come in, right? I think. I think knowing that there are people out there that have financial education courses, that have things there, and again, that goes back to what I said if Uber's the right place, or Lyft or whatever, rideshare company is the right place, you need to understand that you are going to be starting a micro business and you need to educate yourself and you need to understand your numbers. It's the exact same as if you know you go and you get any job. What do we do after we get done in a job interview? You negotiate the salary and what are my benefits and what am I getting? And you understand as much as you can. And if you are at a company. You are stuck at a same pay level for five years with no raise, no nothing. What do you do? You go shopping, you go find somewhere new. I think those are the types of things that to a certain extent, you have to get behind the wheel of your own career, of your micro business, of what you have there. Now that said, obviously we've got a,

Ken Lucci: 1:08:29

that is a, great behind the wheel of your own career. I love that. I love that. Get behind the wheel of your own career.

James Blain: 1:08:38

It's true though.

Ken Lucci: 1:08:39

get behind the wheel of your own career. Understand your cost structure, understand your daily break even. Understand who the best and brightest in your market are that actually know their numbers and find a mentor if that's what you want to do. But to your point, if you're just starting out, use your car for a week, use your car for a month. Don't be afraid to stop into a limo company and say, you know what? I think I'd like to drive. What do you have? What do you have available for? They're always looking for, for clean cut people to, uh, learn the chauffeur trade. And it is. a trade. It is a trade. There are businesses out there that, that teach people how to, uh, how to do it.

James Blain: 1:09:21

Yeah. And I think there's no better place to leave this episode. Right? I think the thing that we've gone around and come back to is a lot of, I think our issue, the two of us with it, is the lack of transparency. And, if anybody on the ride shear side is listening, hopefully we've given you a blueprint. But also, if you're not on the ride share drive, and you've come this far along the ride with us, I think the other side is this is an opportunity for you. This is an opportunity for you to be able to be transparent, for you, to be able to actually be clear with people, for you to actually let them know what they're getting into. And so, hopefully, again, you guys have enjoyed this episode. We've got plenty of topics that are gonna relate to this that we're gonna hit on. One of the things that we would ask is drops a comment, drops a subscribe. Let us know, is this helpful? Do you get anything outta this? And most importantly, what's your thought? We'd love to know, did you drive for Uber? Do you drive for Uber, Lyft, GrubHub? You know, do you own a company? What's kind of your background and experience? And what topics here should we come back to in the future? And I think with that, Ken, any last words of wisdom for us on this one

Ken Lucci: 1:10:24

Yeah, the Uber, uh, the CEO of Uber makes$39 million a year. So when I hear people talk about income, when I hear people talk about income inequality and they were in the back of an Uber vehicle and they just happen to be, certain political persuasion, that's where you need to start with income inequality. Right there.$39 million. Yep.

James Blain: 1:10:47

and on that$39 million bombshell. Thank you again, everybody for listening, and we hope you will tune in to the next episode. Bye-bye.

Ken Lucci: 1:10:55

Thank you.

1:10:56

Thank you for listening to the ground transportation podcast. If you enjoyed this episode, please remember to subscribe to the show on apple, Spotify, YouTube, or wherever you get your podcasts. For more information about PAX training and to contact James, go to PAX training.com. And for more information about driving transactions and to contact Ken, Go to driving transactions.com. We'll see you next time on the ground transportation podcast.