James Blain 0:26

Hi there everybody, and welcome back to another episode of the Ground Transportation Podcast. I am your host James Blaine for PAXs training. Unfortunately, I am not joined by my wonderful co-host Ken Lucci today. He is no doubt out making a huge deal that will revolutionize and change the industry with an acquisition or merger or sale. hopefully I'll be able to be joined by him on our next episode. I'm super excited though today about our guest. We are going international. We are, thankfully enough going to a part of the world that I'm familiar with. We're gonna be talking with Vocon and guys, I gotta tell you, founder and CEO of limos. Four comes from a tech background similar to mine, actually has a PhD in Information Systems. Absolutely incredible person. I'm super excited to have you on the show. Welcome.

Vojkan Tasic 1:10

Thank you James for very warm welcome and uh, I'm very happy to be here.

James Blain 1:14

Now I'm excited to have you. So, like many of us, you did not grow up drawing little chauffeur hats and limos and everything on your binders in school. So tell us how do you come to be in the business? What's kinda your background? How do you get here?

Vojkan Tasic 1:29

Yes. So like, uh, in most cases, uh, life doesn't take you where, where you plan to be. I plan to be, an astronaut. but I figured out, you know, you have to be born in the, on the US soil, which was not, not, uh, not the case. So I had to find something else, you know, so I was, uh, and besides that, I figured out you have to have, uh, like two or three PhDs in order, to be an astronaut. So I, I just got one, um, which is Still not enough. So I'm a,

James Blain 1:55

more than the rest of us in, in most cases. So.

Vojkan Tasic 1:58

a failed astronaut. But, yeah, jokes aside, uh, I'm an engineer, electrical engineering, and I also did a PhD in information systems. my, my journey to, uh, to this very interesting, uh, uh, niche of, of, transportation or, or let's say travel, goes back to 2009, uh, when I was in Switzerland doing my, my master thesis in, uh, A-B-B-A-B. B is one of those huge companies, doing robots, robotic lines, trains, hydropower, plants, uh, and so on. I needed some, pretty much pocket money and um, and the guy asked me to build a booking platform for his, uh, upcoming limo business. And, uh, yeah, I said yes, I did it for a couple of weeks. With, back then it was, it was quite, uh, quite simple and. A month later, he calls me back and says, look, this stuff that you built, uh, I actually cannot, live with it. I'm getting so many requests now in English and I don't speak any English. Can you, can you please help me out now with this? Because you did it. And, uh, yeah, we made some kind of a business arrangement there. so I started to do reservations, uh, partly dispatching for, for his new business with like five cars. and I was doing it in parallel with, with the start of my PhD. So very quickly I figured out I cannot do it myself because, doing PhD at ETH in Zurich is, uh, very demanding. Uh, it's one of the top, uh, universities in Europe. Uh, so we had to do lots of EU projects, lots of paper writing, uh, it was, there was lot, of teaching as well. So I found the first guy. Who will help me out because I'm originally from Serbia and, uh, I, I found somebody from Serbia who could help me out. Uh, so it, it's nowadays my COO Sasha Christi and, uh, Yeah. that's, that's how everything started. We, we were working for this guy in Zurich for a little bit more than a year. And, and we figured out that we are sending lots of work in other cities where we don't have cars.

James Blain 4:03

Okay. Affiliate game.

Vojkan Tasic 4:04

Exactly. I feel people, I feel like, because we were quite new to the business, we knew nothing about it, you know? and we, he simply, offered this guy to do this worldwide. You know, we said, look, we offer you to do this, whatever we do in Zurich, to do it worldwide. he just needed to pay for Google ads because Google ads were really big

James Blain 4:27

What, year is this? What timeframe are we talking

Vojkan Tasic 4:29

that's end of 2010. End

James Blain 4:31

Okay. End of 2010.

Vojkan Tasic 4:33

Yeah, exactly. and he said, uh, luckily he said no. So we continued on our own. We did a, nice research, which markets are, very good for this business. So we came as a result. Believe it or not, it was Copenhagen for some reason because it was a one of the hubs for, uh, cruises back then. It was, it was really big. and that's, that's pretty much how we started.

James Blain 4:56

So tell us a little bit, you know, you're, you're talking about your early platform, you're talking about kinda your first foray. most people don't get into this business by building a booking platform. I think it should be said that is quite the undertaking, you know, as someone that kind works in somewhat of a tech sector, right? We're in the middle of rebuilding the PAC training platform. We're in the riddle of doing that. And, and I, like you came from kind of software background and a tech background, and I can tell you, and I'm sure you'll agree, it's not exactly something you do over a weekend. Right. now when you're building that platform, what are the things that you're worried about? where was kind of your head space? And then how does that morph into where you're at today? Did that help you? Was that just kind of a stepping stone?

Vojkan Tasic 5:40

In order to have a successful platform, you need to have two components, Right. Number one is domain knowledge, which we had no idea about to be honest. Uh, and the second one, you need to have technical knowledge. You need to know how to do it. usually there are lots of engineers going around with crazy ideas. Nobody wants to buy, you know? and we, we were lucky. We had, uh, an experiment going on live, uh, which we could test it on. and that was, very good because the feedback was immediate. You know, we didn't, uh, work on something for months and months without testing it. The feedback was immediate and, uh, that was the crucial point for later. For later on.

James Blain 6:17

Okay. So I think it, what I'm hearing is a lot of this really kind of comes down to just, just getting it done and kind of moving forward now. Where you're at in the business today, I think is worth noting. You mentioned you're doing a lot of English speaking work. Is that still the case?

Vojkan Tasic 6:35

Uh, yes. our main markets Right, now are the Western Europe, uh, and, uh, and, and US obviously we're present in 200 cities worldwide, with, special focus on, on quality. So, I mean, obviously everybody's saying that, right. Uh, everybody has quality and, and so on, but I cannot say how many companies have, full-time teams that are going around the world and really vetting, the partners, you know, in some, requirements we had. cases where, we had to check the tires. The date of the tire production needed to be checked. That is not older than than five years because that was, uh, one of the requirements. Um, and that's what we are really proud of, and which also I, I, I keep repeating, you know, limo four is not in the, chauffeur service or limousine business. We are more in quality assurance business.

James Blain 7:31

Right. Well, and I think it's worth noting a couple things, right? You know this 'cause we've talked, but my family background is very much tied to Spain right now. Anybody watching this on YouTube is like what? Um, but again, my, I have huge ties to Spain. I still have lots of family there. That's where I was married, that's where I spent a lot of my childhood. And I think one of the things that at least if you are used to the American side of the business, if you're used to things, kind of how they operate here is you don't quite have that same understanding of what the chauffeur services industry is in Europe. So can you help us understand, as someone that's kind of traveled back and forth, set kinda the stage for me of if I am an American operator. What things look like here versus if I'm trying to get a big picture kind of understanding of the layout in Europe. How do they differ? What's kind of the difference between them?

Vojkan Tasic 8:26

Yeah. so there are a couple of big differences. So I think the biggest one is for, there are lots of new companies in, uh, in us, new limo companies. And, uh, for them, I think the main message is, guys, we don't have SUVs in Europe. You know, don't ask for SUVs.

James Blain 8:42

What? There's no suburbans driving through the streets of Europe.

Vojkan Tasic 8:47

you know, our streets are built, couple of hundreds of years ago when, uh, only horses needed to pass through.

James Blain 8:53

The width of a horse. That's what you got.

Vojkan Tasic 8:55

exactly. So Suburbans escalates. Forget about it. Too tight. so instead of that, we have, um, something else. It's not as fancy as an Escalade, but it's, uh, Mercedes, V class. That's the standard, uh, which can be very luxury inside as well. And, uh, I think this is the main difference, that comes to my mind. Uh, right now there are a couple of more differences, obviously. so another one is how much in advance. We can give you driver's number, right? In Europe, we can give it to you even 24 hours

James Blain 9:27

Yeah,

Vojkan Tasic 9:28

even for a transfer, not for a full day service. so, even for a transfer, we can give it to you

James Blain 9:32

so, so talk about that for a second. What allows you to do that

Vojkan Tasic 9:36

Cancellation policy.

James Blain 9:37

okay, there you go.

Vojkan Tasic 9:38

Cancellation policy number one, number two, size of fleets. You know, in Europe, it's very rare to find this fleet that is bigger than 20.

James Blain 9:47

Yeah.

Vojkan Tasic 9:48

And if you, if you have 20, your, planning capabilities, don't need to be as real time as if you have 120. You know, if you have 120, you cannot plan for tomorrow because you have no idea how many changes you will have. And you need to react instantly. And that's what's happening in, in us, Right. You guys have really huge fleets and you have to plan almost in real time. And that's why cancellation, policy is, two hours in most, uh, US cities. But in Europe, you, you don't have two hours. That's, that's impossible to get it. So that's why you get 24 hours cancellation, but you also get driver's information, at least 24 hours ahead.

James Blain 10:29

Well, and I think another thing worth noting, you know, when I, when I typically, when when I go back to see my family, when I go home to Spain, I'm flying into Bajas. Right? Which, for those that don't know, is the, the main airport in Madrid. And one of the things that I always notice when I get off that plane, right, I'm lucky enough, I've always got family there to greet me. I'm typically not taking a black car. But when you look at those chauffeurs standing there. The cut of the suit, the physical fitness of the chauffeur, the way they hold themselves, the way they carry themselves. There is something there that you don't see as often in US cities because one of the things that people don't realize is it is considered to be a lot more of a career path. It's a lot more of a prestigious role, whereas a lot of times here in the United States, people think, you know, oh, you know, anybody can go be a chauffeur. And it's a stepping stone job. It's not like a a career job. But you see a lot of people that see being a chauffeur as a true career path. There's a very clear cut distinction between what it is to be a chauffeur and what it's to be a taxi driver. Now, that said, I've spent the Pax 10 years at PAX training, helping companies make that huge distinction. Trying to bring that same feel, that same kind of idea to the us. Now we're still focused on safety and everything else, but I think that's something that, at least in terms of a cultural distinction exists in Europe where it feels like here in the United States, the line between a chauffeur and taxied services is a little blurrier. It's a little more indistinct at times. Whereas I think Europe has kind of a harder distinction. Can you talk to us a bit about that and how that kinda works in practice over there?

Vojkan Tasic 12:13

Yeah. so I, I think there is one primary reason why, why this is the case. historically speaking, taxes in Europe are of much better quality, than in us. And that's why black car service, in us took lots of these, customers that would traditionally go buy taxes in Europe. So they u they're using black car service in in us, and, this enabled black car service, Orford, service, uh, companies to grow much bigger fleets and have much, uh, much more revenue. and. As a result, um, as you said, this line between taxes and, uh, and, and limos are not as distinct and as in Europe. So in Europe, you had a very clear line and, most of the people that were just using taxi because it's super safe, very nice inside. in most German cities, eClass is a standard for a taxi, so you, you get like Almost the top premium quality for, regular taxi. And, uh, not so many people were, choosing, uh, a black car service or chare service. Right. and there is also I think a little bit of a men mentality. topic,

James Blain 13:20

Almost to a cultural difference.

Vojkan Tasic 13:22

difference in us. uh, I think people like to show off a little bit more than in Europe. I know billionaires, literally

James Blain 13:29

Are, are you stereotyping Americans as liking to show off because you've pegged us for who we are?

Vojkan Tasic 13:34

based on my, my personal experience because I, I've never seen a billionaire in us taking a tram, you know? But I, have seen a billionaire in Zurich taking a tram,

James Blain 13:44

Yeah. I, I can't see Jeff Bezos being like, guys, guys, we're, we're not taking the private jet. We're not taking the helicopter, we're going Amtrak today. I just, I don't see that happening, but I can tell you, you know, at least in, in Spain, The public transportation system. even when I've, I've been up to other European countries down there, you can take public transit and it's a lot more commonplace to do that, you know, the, the subway and the metro systems, I would say in, I have yet to see somewhere in Europe where their subway or metro system isn't better than the best of what New York or Chicago or any, you know, California, you know, you've got all these places in the US to have them, but there really isn't much in the US that compares to that level. And I think you're absolutely right. It's something that where, you know, that CEO or that business person probably grew up writing that their whole life and they feel safe, they feel comfortable. You are not going to see Tim Cook's not gonna get on an Amtrak and go to a business meeting.

Vojkan Tasic 14:47

It. It's also that cities are a little bit more centralized, a little bit more. All European cities are walkable, so in US you don't have that many walk up cities, so you have to jump on a car or something else. And, And there are many parameters that is actually affecting what you were just saying. You know, the, uh, market in Europe is much smaller, and that's why they can pay maybe a little bit better. And, a little bit more differentiated from other shoppers or drivers. and that's why, why you got this, uh, job stickiness of, of these people that they can, uh, be more proud of it.

James Blain 15:19

Well, and let me, let me kinda shift gears for another moment because tell us about, you know, I, I don't know how familiar you're with the retail market here in the us, you know, but it, at least in my experience, the retail market in Europe operates a lot differently than the retail market here. Obviously, you know, you've got, you've got certain cities that in Europe that are gonna be more driven towards, you know, nightlife or those types of things where the, the black car industry or, or even the tourism industry is gonna adapt a little. But the retail business also operates a little different over there as well. Can you tell us a little bit on that side?

Vojkan Tasic 15:54

Yes. Retail business in, in Europe is much smaller than in us. we have proms Yes. Weddings. Yes. but you know, this, this kind of movie, night outs, uh, fancy dinners, uh, that's almost nonexisting in, in Europe, you know, and most of the retail we are getting from, uh, this business is, uh, coming from us, you know, people coming from us and they really use lots of these services. And some of the suppliers are even, uh, you know, surprised that somebody's taking a limo for this kind of, uh, o occasions, retail business is also on another, uh, hand, very complicated. You know, it takes, uh, way more touch points than for, for regular business rides. and that's why everybody's trying to, to avoid it. And also we have shifted our strategy, towards corporate travel and, events, transportation rather than going for, for retail because it's small. and in, in Europe we are a little bit behind you guys, because, um, when you say limo, people still think, uh, about stretch, you know? Uh, and I hope we will get rid of this one soon.

James Blain 18:07

Well, and I think, I think another thing worth noting here, you know, we've seen things like congestion pricing in New York. We've seen like things like that. But, you know, Europe was really one of the early adopters. You know, I remember when I first found out about the cities going in and saying, Hey, we're going to have this zone of the city where it's electrical only. you know, you can't have a vehicle older than the year 2000, or you can't have, you know, certain vehicles. So unlike the United States where it's very common for me to say, Hey, you know, I'm gonna have a night out with my wife, we're gonna have a car, take us downtown, we're gonna do that. a lot of that, like you said, becomes more complex. And of course, you know, having the, the year model, things like that are simple. But I think. To your point early about walkable cities and public transportation and these types of things, the European cities are not built with that same state of mind that we have here in the US of, Hey, we'll just get a car. And I think one of the things I'd also like you to talk about is I think a lot of these differences changed the way that Rideshare and TNCs affected the European companies versus the American companies. So can you tell us a little bit about what that kinda looked like for you guys when that happened?

Vojkan Tasic 19:20

Yeah. because this, differentiation between taxes and, uh, and limos, it was already done. You know, when and when Uber came, they just attacked the taxi business. So they almost didn't touch, the chauffeur service segment. but as, as we said, this line was not very clear in us. So they attacked both. They, uh, pretty much decimated taxi business right now. And, I don't know the numbers, but I don't think it, affected the limo business as much as taxi, obviously.

James Blain 19:51

No, and I, I think back to when I first got into this business roughly 10 years ago, I remember people, you know, Uber and, and all of this and Rideshare and Lyft, and it's, it's gonna do this. And one of the big things that I found myself repeating over and over and over is, why are you competing with them? Why are you allowing yourself to compete with what should be on the taxi level? Right? if you are trying to compete with a taxi, with an Uber, right? doesn't make sense because you should be providing a higher level of service. You should be providing, you know, a nicer vehicle. You should be providing, a safer experience. You should be providing all of these things that puts you in a completely and totally different category than that type of business. And I think what we've seen happen is we had that distinction happen, and then I think now what we're seeing is TNC and Rideshare is now trying to go the other direction. Right? Whereas all of the companies successfully came outta COVID. I think we reached a point where you have all of these people that came out head and shoulders above we, we don't match at all. Now the TNCs are trying to have their premium levels and their black levels and things like that, but they're still not sending chauffeurs They're taking those same taxi drivers and putting them into chauffeur services, vehicles like Suburbans, Escalades, vehicles like that. And you have that distinction. And I think early on in the business, what we saw is we saw this blurry line happen between taxi and chauffeur, and the difference was the car. And I think where the industry was for a while on the chauffeur services side is now kind of where the TNCs and the rideshare companies are stuck. Whereas I don't know that in Europe we kind of saw those cycles happen, or at least not in the parts of Europe where I grew up.

Vojkan Tasic 21:44

Yes, in, in most cities it was forbidden in the beginning. And, uh, uh, as I said it, it affected predominantly taxes. But what you just said is, is one of the biggest issue we have in our industry. Everybody's focusing on their brand new Escalade and showing off how fancy it is, but they're not focusing on, uh, on the chauffeurs, right? And what are the capabilities of the chauffeurs? do they really know how to handle different cultures? When, when the guests from Japan comes, do they know how to greet them? Do they really know how to open the door? You know, do they have, uh, all the checklist to do before starting the ride? and all this stuff, regular driver or regular taxi driver, he doesn't really care. Uh, and, uh, and, and this, this brought, this actually blurred this line between TNCs and uh, and our industry.

James Blain 22:34

Oh, and look, I, we talk about it on here all the time because what I tell people, and this is really important to note, is GM doesn't care. Right? And, and, and I'll use Suburbans, right, because we're talking to predominantly US customers here, but. They'll sell a suburban to you. They'll sell a suburban to an Uber driver, they'll sell it to a soccer mom, they'll sell it to whoever wants to buy one. Right? they're going to sell it to anyone they want. And so what the difference becomes is the service you're providing, the way they interact with your office staff, the experience they have with your team, and then guess who the face, the feel the whole company is. You could have the best office staff, you could have the best team in the world, but if I send a chauffeur that looks like you rolled outta bed with a cowlick and a suit that's barely on him or her right, guess what? The whole experience is gonna be ruined. And I tell people all the time, you know, our focus at PACS training is you've got to teach that chauffeur that they are the core and everything revolves around them. And, and the reason I brought up the cultural earlier is that's something that we've taught since day one. It's something that I brought over from that European upbringing is if I can get you to understand this is a career path. This is not just a job, this is not just a stepping stone. If I can get you to stand a little straighter, if I can get you to feel a little better, if I can get you to do that, suddenly you start wearing the suit differently. You start taking care of the vehicle differently. You start addressing the passenger differently. And it's something that we've worked on a lot at PAXs helping these chauffeurs understand that you are building on a legacy of service and that when you do that and you're able to provide everything there, now you're serving a passenger in a way that no other industry is gonna be able to do that no other service is gonna be able to do. And I think at least in everything that we've seen, that's what sets companies apart from a premium ride car service, right? Versus, you know, your premium TNCs, all of that. They're just taking a ride share driver and they're putting 'em in an Escalade. Chauffeur services is where I know that my needs are being anticipated. I can trust that I've got a safe ride. I have absolute peace of mind when I'm with that chauffeur.

Vojkan Tasic 24:54

Here is an idea for you. Everybody's saying they have a chauffeur service, right, worldwide. But this is so different from place to place. It's unbelievable. But let me give you an example.

James Blain 25:07

Yeah.

Vojkan Tasic 25:08

you have lots of these, aircraft where you don't have real business seats, Right. They put some curtains and they say, okay, these first couple of seats

James Blain 25:16

Can't tell the difference. Yeah.

Vojkan Tasic 25:19

actually, you can't, you know, because you know what to expect, you

James Blain 25:23

True. True.

Vojkan Tasic 25:24

you, know, for as a fact, nobody will be sitting next to you. That's number one. That's, that's worldwide standard, right? You will have much better meal. You will have, uh, much better, service from the, from the flight attendants. so at least it's standardized, you know, you know what's, to expect. In our case, we don't know that, and each company has, uh, grade A. Drivers and they have grade C. And, and this should be somehow, easily testable and that you can really choose. I wanna have, I wanna have your best driver. I wanna have your superstar, right? I, I wanna pay premium for it, but I, I need to know that this guy is the guy, right? And right now there is no. measurement. There is no, I mean, you know, if, if there is a suburban or an escalate, it's very obvious, right? But with the driver, you have no clue.

James Blain 26:17

Well, but I've said this before, right? I'll take the Suburban with an excellent chauffeur over the Escalade with a ride share driver every single day of the week. Now, it's interesting because you've hit on a couple things that we actively discuss in our team meetings at pax, right? And one of the things that we've always wanted, we've always tried to do is to be able to set companies apart, right? If you are using PAX training, if you are having your drivers go through certifications, if you're doing what you're supposed to do with it, that allows you to get that chauffeur right? Change them from a driver to a chauffeur, be certified, be there. But you've brought up this really great point, and that's that we have these different levels, or you have these different types of drivers. What I would argue is my goal is to try and get them all to that a level. What we found, and this is something that I see over and over, is it's very difficult to cut through the marketing puffery of all of my chauffeur are the safest, the best, the most well-trained, right? There are days that I see companies like we have the safest, the best, the most amazing drivers, and I'm just going, oh, like, like, God, you know, I'm not, it's not me to tell you how to run your business, but you're lying to people because I've seen your operation or I've ridden with your drivers, or I know that we've had conversations and you're like, why would I ever put a dime into my drivers? Why would I update my fleet? Why would I do all that? I make more money if I have older vehicles and I spend less money on the dr. You know you. It's very hard, and one of the things that we see a lot in this industry, especially, this is something I see at shows, this is something I see when I'm at events. This is something I see at dinners. There is this big drive in this industry for owners to have the Rolex watch, the Armani suit. Right. Just look the part. Absolutely. Look the part,

Vojkan Tasic 28:18

Hmm.

James Blain 28:19

and what I've found is a lot of times the guys that are a little more understated, right? You always, you always hear the quiet money, right? Those tend to be the ones that keep the money in their business or in their fleet or in their chauffeur. Those tend to be the ones that are kind of putting it in there. And I think one of the things that we're seeing, to your point that you've made, you know, on that aircraft, you have those different levels of service. I don't know that we're gonna reach a point where we're gonna be able to do that on the chauffeur services industry. But when we get to the point where your economy class is ride share, and your business class is chauffeur. I can only tell the difference by the vehicle type. I think that's where you start getting a breakdown and you start getting into real trouble. And I think the biggest issue, not so much being able to have the classes within the chauffeur services industry, is more the fact that we have a lot of companies that claim they are world-class service, that claim they are luxury and don't meet any kind of standard, they don't have adequate training for their chauffeurs. They don't have vehicles that they're taking care of. They don't have something that, in my opinion, would kind of be at that base. I'd love you to talk about how do you, you know, your company, what you do, you guys have very exacting standards when you are looking at affiliates, when you're trying to figure out how to use, how are you figuring out whether or not they're gonna meet your needs?

Vojkan Tasic 29:56

so we have built over the last 10 years, um, five step approach. how we do the vetting. You know, we start for, uh, with the really basic research, using some online databases paid and then free ones to check for, uh, credit scores, uh, business registration, and check everything. We can

James Blain 30:18

so evaluating the business?

Vojkan Tasic 30:20

evaluating the business? whether they pass this first step, then we ask for the documentation, right? once we ask for the documentation, we, we also use some external services to check the documents, validity and so on. We even call the insurances to check if, these are valid. we have seen falsified insurance policies as well.

James Blain 30:39

No.

Vojkan Tasic 30:41

And, uh, a after, after they, they pass all this, uh, we schedule an interview, online interview. in many occasions, we also ask them to have as many cars as they can in the garage. We know that's not possible always. and we do a video call with them and we ask them to show us the garage.

James Blain 31:00

Okay.

Vojkan Tasic 31:00

so that's the, that's the first step. And, uh, we we, you know, we don't wanna invest in traveling there if, uh, if they don't don't fulfill the basics. So once they, pass this one, then we go there, we go visit them. we have a full checklist, of topics we need to check. some of the, the topics, have to check are, a little bit stupid, but we still have to check them because of some clients of ours are requesting it. for example, we need to check if they have proper fire extinguishers in the, in the, in the building. We need to check if there is no child labor, you know,

James Blain 31:35

we don't let kids drive here.

Vojkan Tasic 31:37

Yes, it's, uh, pretty much impossible, but we need to put a official check mark, and they need to sign it. and, you know, we are very transparent with all these, um, auditing topics. We are gonna check, uh, when we visit them, we send it, uh, upfront so they can, uh, they can prepare. If they don't have some, uh, you know, if they have some, uh, children, drivers, uh, they can remove them.

James Blain 32:01

So let's let, let's stop for a second. 'cause, you know, I, I can just, I can already hear listeners going, you're flying, you're flying in to check on affiliates. Are you, how do you make this affordable? Right? How many of the affiliates are able to drop what they're doing and let you do a site visit? I guess walk us through and, and, you know, shout out to Ken, 'cause Ken is gonna come at this later and, and be able to tell us the money of, of what we'd be able to do here. But help me understand What makes it financially viable to be able to do that for you, to where you're able to go out there and what is kind of the volume that you guys are looking at? How does your business model work to where you are able to actually invest that much time and money into vetting an affiliate? Okay.

Vojkan Tasic 32:45

So this is uh, we are that, that's a very good question. Uh, if you do a basic, business model, it doesn't, doesn't work, right? But we are, financing this in most cases from the marketing budgets, you know, and that's, the catch. We have a little bit different, mindset, because. All the auditing reports in our case is a huge differentiation point for our clients. Uh, and if we go in front of our clients and, and we said, look, here is like hundreds of uh, in-person auditing reports, then it's very easy for them to decide who they're gonna go with. And that's why we are winning, uh, really big accounts in the last two years.

James Blain 33:28

So this is a major differentiator in your

Vojkan Tasic 33:30

this is one of the, one of the main differentiator. Yes. Besides other tech topics we, we have going on, uh, yes. This is the, one of the, one of the biggest one. But just to continue very briefly with, with my, with my story. so all affiliates, uh, or partners as we call them, after they pass this in, in-person, uh, uh, auditing, they are onboarded and then they Are in the testing phase. So, uh, they will have a testing next to their, company name in the dispatch screen. So they are enabled for new rides, and they will be in the testing phase. Um, and they can receive couple of rides, right? And then they will be, uh, reviewed afterwards. Our affiliate manager, will receive an email. Okay, testing phase is over. Please review the results. system is, uh, picking up all the topics, right? Whether the drivers had the, right statuses, GPS coordinates, you know, if, if the jobs were closed, uh, properly, you know, if there are no incidents, this is all done pretty much automatically. And, uh, they can be put after this in the, in the regular, working mode. the system is monitoring them. we are following more than 30 different parameters. for each of the partner

James Blain 34:42

Are you able to share some of those with us? Some of the key ones that you're looking

Vojkan Tasic 34:45

Yes, yes. So we have, I think, six, seven different categories. starting from price contracting, insurance, flexibility, punctuality, incidents, drivers appearance, many, many different topics. And, and we have subtopics in, in which one of them, we, we grade them, between one and 10, and we have a waiting factor for each of the parameter. And then we get a number from between zero and 100. In the end. It's a, it's a score which actually, tells us a lot about, about this partner. So. we have ghost rides as well. from time to time we do that. We check our partners, and we have, pretty much yearly reviews with each one of them to see what went good, what, uh, didn't go so, so good. And, uh, Yeah. this is, this is the main process we have and, uh, one of the biggest differentiators of limos four.

James Blain 35:39

So let me ask you then, kind of knowing that you have that model. One of the things that I see that just it makes my skin crawl is when I see an operator and they'll go on a Facebook group and they'll go, Hey, I got a trip, is tomorrow 6:00 AM Who can do it in m? Right. And there's no vetting. It's, you can tell it's, I told this guy, I'm gonna cover the trip. I gotta find someone to cover the trip. And it's literal, first come, first serve. Right. And I, it's always, I kid you not almost the very first come, they're like, Bob can do it. Great. Thanks. And it's done. That's it. They're sending it to whoever that was on a whim. No vetting. how does that work for you guys? You know, if you have a situation where, and, and I feel I already know the answer to this, but if you have a situation where you say, Hey, we've got a business executive, he's flying into Bozeman, Montana tomorrow, you guys, you know, let's say you don't have anyone, I'm sure you do, but you don't have anyone in Bozeman, Montana. what does that process look like? Or how would you guys handle that? And, and clearly not Facebook, but what, what would that look like for you? Or how would your team address that?

Vojkan Tasic 37:52

Yeah, so that's a, that's a very good question. If it's something urgent, we will reject it. You know, we will just say, sorry. We cannot fulfill our quality standards. And, and that's it. We had many occasions where. our clients, very good clients. Of course, we won't do it for everybody, but very good clients say, Okay. our executives are traveling in very, very weird place somewhere in Africa, you know, and we, pretty much send the people before that to vet the partner on the spot and, uh, and prepare everything for, for the arrival. And, uh, that's the only way how we can do it. otherwise, you know, I've, I've seen so many horror stories. I've seen a Coca-Cola executive being picked up by the random guy in, in, Bulgaria. Uh, you know, so, uh, it's one in one of those WhatsApp groups, you know, somebody say, oh, who do we have for this? And, um, that's really ho and that's why also, uh, we are one of the top choices as an affiliate, for, uh, biggest, US limo companies in all those markets that are not London, Barcelona

James Blain 38:53

They're accessing your network, essentially.

Vojkan Tasic 38:55

Exactly, They're using our network because they know we vetted them and they have one ride a month where we have maybe one ride in two days in these, uh, small places. And we have full leverage these suppliers. You know, we are give them more than 30, 40% of their total revenue. So it's kind of an extended arm of, our own fleet. and this is one of the biggest advantages that we have on the market.

James Blain 39:19

So let me ask you then, and, and again, I'm sure I know the answer to this one, what is your ideal client and where do you guys, you know, uh. Are you purely focused on those high level executives, and where do you kind of see the growth or kind of the expansion of your business?

Vojkan Tasic 39:37

So we are focusing at the moment on, on two channels, or let's say two niche. So, uh, one is, um, uh, executive transportation and corporate transportation for, Medium sized companies, you know, up to, 200 travelers and they are not, big enough for the, the biggest ones, the biggest providers. but they are big enough for us where they need a little bit tailored, solution and they want to pay premium for, for some, uh, extra service there. So that's, that's one. And the other one is, uh, transportation for events. That's where we have gotten, uh, really good lately, not lately actually. It's, it sounds like, uh, like it's lately, but we've been doing for quite some time. Uh, and transportation for events is one of those non-scalable part of our business?

James Blain 40:27

How so?

Vojkan Tasic 40:28

You, have to, for some of the events, you have to plan one year ahead. You have to assign a event manager, just for transportation on our end. And he will have, uh, or she, in our case, will have, countless emails and, uh, we never had a big event below 50 versions of Excel file for manifest. so there is lots of planning involved and, over the, over the time we have built our own technology to improve the scalability of it. It's still not fully scalable, but, uh, we are ahead of everybody else, with technology for, uh, event transportation because we started, with AI way before JGBT, we, we started with TensorFlow and uh, just the basic neural networks. We, so we, we have big advantage now on the, on the market. That's why we can do it much faster and so? on. And that's why we are doing Lots of events now, in US as well for one of the biggest Banks.

James Blain 41:23

So it sounds like you're still running your own dispatch software. Do you guys have any plans to make that available or is that kind of part of your secret sauce, so to speak?

Vojkan Tasic 41:32

So it's, we have built so many, uh, competitive advantages in, uh, in, in this software. So we, we've been asked, all the time to, to have it for somebody else, but, uh, it's not built for that. Uh, on, on the other side. I mean, you know, James, you know, software very well, and, uh, if you have, if you never plan for multi-tenancy, you cannot have multi-tenancy.

James Blain 41:55

No, no. And, and for those listening that are going multi what? So, so essentially when you, when you're building a software specific for your use case and for what you do, you essentially build it and tailor it like a suit around yourself. And the problem becomes making that suit fit like a glove on someone else becomes really tough. And I think the other thing that's really important to note there is you also at that point, if you start trying to make it fit better around other people, it starts fitting looser around yourself. So I, I think, one, it gives you a competitive advantage that no one else has that, but two, I think that's a very smart move. And that you understand that something that's built specifically for you and that you're using it for yourself.

Vojkan Tasic 42:38

And what's very interesting about it, is that our operations department, you know, reservations and dispatch is sitting 10 meters away from the, from the IT guys. And, uh, all they have to do is just, just walk five seconds and they can freely yell at them, you know?

James Blain 42:53

And, and now everyone that works in the office that has ever had a computer problem hates you. Um, no. It's, there's, there's a lot to be said about that. And I think one of the things, and Ken and I talk about this a lot, is a lot of what we do in this business is being able to create systems and processes and understand your business because you have to get it to run like a well-oiled machine. And in a lot of businesses that I see, they can get away with kind of off the hip, right? Cowboy style operations only till they reach about 10 vehicles. Once you get to the point where you have to be able to provide, like we talked about earlier, that consistency, everybody's a team, everybody's the best, and have it all run the way it's supposed to. You just have to have. Processes in place. And I think one of the big advantages that it sounds like you've had coming from information systems, coming from tech, is that you have this appreciation for kinda that engineering mindset. There's a process, there's a way to do it. We're gonna create a piece of software, we're gonna create something to do it. So I, I know that of course, being a tech guy, it's gotta come here. What does the future hold and what do you see? I know at least here in the US there's a lot of talk about autonomous, depending on who you talk to. It's the best thing ever, the worst thing ever. It's next week, it's next 20 years. What does that look like? And more specifically, since you've got a global view, what do you see in terms of not just autonomous, but how is AI going to change what we do? How is tech gonna change what we do? What, what are you guys looking at to stay ahead? Being a tech focused company?

Vojkan Tasic 44:42

Uh. When it comes to the future, there are two components, uh, future in our industry. one is ai, uh, that is actually going with, uh, very, very big speed. Uh, another one is autonomous vehicles. So let's start with the autonomous vehicles. which big part of it is, uh, obviously ai. we know what's, what's happening in us, Tesla Robo Taxi is now in, uh, in Austin, right?

James Blain 45:07

Just saw an article. They're moving to New York.

Vojkan Tasic 45:10

yeah. we don't see it in the next 10 years coming to our industry.

James Blain 45:14

Okay? Mm-hmm.

Vojkan Tasic 45:15

I'm talking from more from the European perspective, Right. Where, where chauffer service is still very differentiated. It's on the stating of the top. it's, it's. Servicing only the VAP, right? If you are talking about Ritz Carlton, I take that example a lot. I don't see a robot checking me in, uh, in Ritz Carlton anytime soon. But what it will, uh, do to the industry is, uh, uh, it will make, companies like yours back training way more significant for the industry because those drivers need to get better and better and better, you know, in order to stay in the shrinking pond. and what's gonna happen after this 10 years? We're not sure, you know, people will probably get more comfortable with it. and will, I don't know, there might be as, classes, driving around with the. With VIPs alone, but, uh, not in the next 10 years. That's our prediction. We thought a lot about it. We discussed it with, uh, with people from Mercedes, with people from rental cars. we thought a lot about it, but that's the common, common conclusion that in the next 10 years we're safe. Where taxis and, uh, TNCs, they're not safe. Uh, that's gonna come, uh, much, much sooner.

James Blain 46:36

no, and, and I agree with you. I think, you know, when you, when you think to what we talked about earlier, right? If you take a, a rideshare driver or a taxi driver and you put 'em into a Suburban or an Escalade or you know, an S class, that doesn't make them a chauffeur. I, I can't imagine the Ritz Carlton saying, well, we're going to super glue a bow tie underneath the screen of our check-in, and that makes it a luxury check-in. And the other check-in kiosk is just that, that doesn't make sense either, right? I think, you know, something to be said was the evolution of the doorman. You know, when I think of high-end hotels, you know, you think of that doorman, you think of that image and what happens, uh, at one point in the hotel's history, they decide, well, we don't really need the doorman. We don't really need him there. You know, we'll get rid of him. And all of the things that, that doorman did now have to fall somewhere else. And you lose that. You know, you think of the highest end hotels, I think of, you know, everything that goes with that. And it's a, it's a big deal when you walk up to that hotel to see that that front entrance is perfectly manicured, perfectly taken care of. Because as I talked about earlier with that chauffeur who is in the suit, who is taking care of the vehicle, is doing the presentation, that doorman is taking care of that space. They are making sure everything within that space is perfect. My business partner Bruce, talks about when he worked at the Ritz-Carlton, and one of the things that he says is, you know, we're walking down this hallway and we're with the GM of the hotel on my first day. Right. And what does he do? There's a piece of trash in the hallway. He stops, he picks it up. Right. Sure. You can get a Roomba to do that. Sure. You know, you can get to that point. But having people that are taking care of a space feels completely different. Having that person able to help you with your luggage, to help you with the door to welcome and greet you. Look, I, I just don't see a world where even when we get to humanoid robots, it's welcome Mr. Blaine to the Ritz-Carlton Hotel. Like, it just doesn't, you're gonna lose that warmth.

Vojkan Tasic 48:43

it, it'll have, it'll have the perfect accent. Uh, it's, you know, that's, uh, there is no question about it, but, but there is, uh, you know, human communication is not about what just comes out our mouth. We, we have 90% more communication that is, uh, nonverbal and, uh, yeah, you, you can also say, yeah, they can also pick up lots of other cues, but we don't know how to train those robots because we, even don't know what this nonverbal communication is.

James Blain 49:09

right.

Vojkan Tasic 49:10

So it's, it's, it's complicated.

James Blain 49:12

No, I, I think, I think you've really hit on what I believe is key to the future of our industry, and that is understanding that if you are just running a car service, you're probably missing the mark. I think one of the things I love about your model is. The care and the attention to detail and understanding where you sit in the market. I have always said, if your business is, I get people into black car vehicles and I get them from point A to point B, you're gonna be in trouble. I just, don't see a future for black taxis, which is what a lot of companies operate as. so let me ask you, as we kinda wrap up the episode, what is the number one thing that you see if you are talking to other companies, what is the number one thing that you see in your areas that you work in that people miss or that people don't understand? And then what do you see as the single biggest opportunity in our industry right now?

Vojkan Tasic 50:12

single biggest opportunity is, uh, utilization of ai. Everybody needs to jump, jump on this train, but not as, not to have, uh, chat bots to answer the, the phone, uh, but rather to utilize AI to help them with the, uh, backend operations to help them with, uh, uh, you know. Checking the invoices, you know, all those, tasks that can be done very easily nowadays with AI to improve, improve their operational excellence in, in the background. Right? And if they don't do it quite soon, I think they, they will stay, stay behind. Um.

James Blain 50:46

So how do they do that, right? If you've, you know, obviously you have a massive advantage because of your background, but if we're talking to an operator who has no tech background, no tech experience, you know, and, and not, I'm not asking you to promote any vendors or put any names out there, you're welcome to if you'd like, but how, where do they start or what would be kind of your jumping off point? How do they dip their toe in the water and start going down that path?

Vojkan Tasic 51:14

So, um, let's, let's be clear about one thing. there is this open ai, there is entropic, there is, uh, perplexity, there are lots of different lms, large language models that are out there. And you can think of them like, uh, wheat 12, uh, diesel engine. That is hugely powerful, you know, and, uh, but you need to put something around it. You know, engine by itself doesn't do anything, and you need to put a scaffolding around it. these companies have tried and, and they, they're trying really hard now to, to give you tools to build your own scaffolding. the, you can use multiple, options, Right. One is. Probably the best one is to use API. They have, you know, if you have another piece of software that you can integrate with these kind of engines, you can, uh, do it via API. But if you don't want to do that, you can. Um, for example, uh, the simplest way, if you are on Google, uh, workspace, you can create so-called gems. You can, uh, um, explain in a gem what you wanted to do. You, for example, you can say, okay, I want you to behave like a, like a CPA in us. I want you to be able to, to check the invoices for correctness, for date, for this is the date I want to have in there, you can just put in plain language what you want this one to do. and use this gem actually to, to check the invoices. It's gonna be super powerful. Just upload the invoice. You can say also in the gem explanation, whenever I upload your file, I just want you to give me Okay. And or not. Okay. Right. there are many ways how this can be utilized. You don't have to necessarily go to chat GPT and do everything manually and explain all over again, what you wanna do. And also, I would invest, five hours, not more, just five hours over the next one month to, research about, prompting. You know, how can you improve your prompts? This will make your life, much easier. And I, I think this is the biggest opportunity at the moment, invention of internet, is nothing compared to ai, era that we are, we are in.

James Blain 53:24

I couldn't agree with you more. I was, I was very lucky and that growing up, my grandfather worked for Jet Propulsion Laboratories, so when I was old enough to understand what if, then meant I, I got taught how to program and as you mentioned, you know, TensorFlow Neural, you know, I grew up with neural networks and these massive complex, ais that could literally barely talk to you. now we've gotten to these models. I think one of the things that I would tell people, and the best way that I've learned to really help kind of someone that doesn't know anybody to think about AI is you're basically dealing with a savant. Um, it knows, it's taken all of the knowledge of mankind and it's been shoved into this tiny little brain, but it's still almost like a child. So, to your point, like you said about behaving like a CPA, what I've found is really effective for people that are just getting started out is tell it who and what you want it to be. Hey. I want you to be a CPA for a transportation company that is an expert in helping them maximize their revenue, understand their cost per trip, right? Whatever that might be. Or, hey, I want you to act as a safety and compliance manager for a bus company that understands all of the regulatory compliance in the United States, you know, specifically working in the state of Kansas. And I want you to ask me every single question that you need to ask me to be able to be the most effective at that job. And it sucks, right? It is. The, the hardest part about this is it's gonna now give you like 50 questions and you're gonna go, what have I done? Right? But

Vojkan Tasic 55:03

you can, limit. you can,

James Blain 55:04

you can, you can, but at that point, right, and, and you don't have to answer all the questions either, right? That's another trick. But doing that, asking it to become someone. Then asking it, the information it needs to do that for you. Then providing it, the information is and, and I'd love to get your thoughts on this, at least in my opinion, in my experience, that's been one of the most effective ways to help people get more out of it. From day one, you can go into whatever AI you like today, right now, after this podcast and do that, and it will make it instantly more effective.

Vojkan Tasic 55:40

There is another tip. you can use, AI to write a prompt for another ai. So what, what, what I'm doing, what, what I'm doing, I'm, I'm using, for example, entropic or perplexity to write, a prompt for charge GPT, I'm saying, look, I need a prompt for charge GPT, this version. Uh, please do a research, how to do it properly. Compare all the results I wanna have this. this, this, and that in this kind of format and so on. And then it drives a perfectly nice, uh, nice prompt how to, how to do it. And then you get like perfect results, obviously.

James Blain 56:13

Now I will give one caveat asking chat GPT to do it for itself or Gemini to do it for itself. I have had very poor results,

Vojkan Tasic 56:22

yes. You need to use another one.

James Blain 56:24

yeah, so if you are, if you're just getting into this, do not go to chat GBT and be like, Hey, I need you to write a prompt for yourself to have yourself do this, to help me with that. but what neat is you are basically, when you are going to different types of ai, you are able to do that. The one other caveat I would give is you have to be aware of what's going on under the hood. So if you try to get slick and you say, Hey, I'm gonna have Apple Intelligence, write a prompt for chat, GPT, you do have to be aware that Apple is using chat GPT as the backend for that. So you'll run to that same

Vojkan Tasic 57:01

my comparison there is, uh, you know, like in biology, you know, don't marry into the family, you'll not get

James Blain 57:07

geez. Yeah. There you go.

Vojkan Tasic 57:09

You need to mix drinks, you do mixed drinks.

James Blain 57:12

Yeah. You, you've gotta mix 'em to get the results. That's absolutely wonderful. Well, I gotta tell you, I've had a great time on this podcast with you. I think this is a super valuable effort. You guys have got an incredible model. It was really fun, at least for me. you know, obviously living here in the States and having all the family back home in Europe, it's always great for me to kind of reminisce and talk about how things are over there. And you guys have an incredible model. let me ask, if people wanna learn more about your company, if people wanna learn more about what they do, if people wanna learn more about you, where can they find you guys work? Can they learn more about limos four?

Vojkan Tasic 57:46

They can find the, all the information on limos four.com, but they can also personally reach out to me in, uh, uh, in Dallas, in the, in the CD fall show, or in Las Vegas. We are every, every year there and we, we would be more than happy to, to chat about, uh, limits four?

James Blain 58:02

Awesome VO count. I can't thank you enough for coming on. We're gonna have to have you back on again. It's been absolutely wonderful. If you haven't already, please subscribe to our podcast. We love your feedback, so anything you can share with us, whether that be comments, messages, emails, let us know how we're doing. Let us know what you guys wanna hear. And thank you guys so much again for listening to the Ground Transportation Podcast. Bye-bye.

58:23

Thank you for listening to the ground transportation podcast. If you enjoyed this episode, please remember to subscribe to the show on apple, Spotify, YouTube, or wherever you get your podcasts. For more information about PAX training and to contact James, go to PAX training.com. And for more information about driving transactions and to contact Ken, Go to driving transactions.com. We'll see you next time on the ground transportation podcast.