Ken Lucci 0:26

Well, good afternoon and welcome to another exciting episode of the Ground Transportation Podcast. My name is Ken Luci from Driving Transactions. I'm doing a solo, podcast, today without my lovely and talented partner in crime, James Blaine from PAC's Training. Uh, I, I understand he's traveling, probably training a whole group of class A chauffeurs. So, James, I miss you if you're out there and if you're listening, I am really blessed today. my prayers have come true from last night, and I actually, this is, this is actually happening where I have two people that I really call my friends in the industry, and two guys that I also consider to be serious icons in the business. You've both been in the business for a long time, and your brothers. and you're in the same room, which, and you're, you're smiling, which is, which is pretty interesting. I'm pleased to have, uh, and now I didn't pick who was going to be announced first, so don't read into this. Um, Mike Rose. Mike Rose from my limo. I think it might have to do with the spend. I'm not sure. Anyway, Mike Rose from my limo, president of my limo, and Tim Rose from Hoffman Transportation Group. dolphin Transportation in Florida. Tim, you're president of Hoffman Transportation. Okay. Well, I really appreciate you coming today. Um, we try to make these podcasts fun, uh, with information that operators can, glean from, from, that they can put into their operation. And the whole idea is to make them think. Right? So I couldn't think of a better couple of guests to have on that. Have your legacy in the space. and whoever decides to go first, you guys can draw straws. Tell us about your first chapter in the business.

The Nice Brothers 2:24

Go ahead. Well, you know, we, uh, our family was in the, uh, leasing and renta car business, Ken. and while during, um, college I worked for, uh, the family business in the, uh, the rent the car, you know, space. And we, um, we used to deal with a lot of, you know, corporate, Uh, accounts in the Meadowlands area where we were in New Jersey, and it was a good opportunity at that time to, uh, to build up that leasing and, and Renta car business. And this was really before enterprise was, uh, prominent on every corner like they are now. So that business was, uh, was, was fairly successful and, um, you know, during college worked there, uh, you doing different, uh, positions and then we, um, we used to get a lot of people requesting to pick them up and drop them off at hotels locally and for the rented cars. And, and then, you know, later on people would, uh, would ask us to take them, uh, to the airport 'cause they couldn't find transportation. And we, uh, started looking into that. one we found was that there was, you know, a, an opportunity on the, transportation side in, uh, in New Jersey's ripe. Uh, 'cause there's a lot of, you know, big corporations, headquarters, pharmaceutical companies and other things. So we, um, we were very, uh, successful at going to some of those companies who we had rented cars, uh, to, and, uh, and trying to see what they did. And they all used taxi services. So they were, uh, were pretty happy to have a, uh, a transportation company that they could use that was more, you know, professional than what they were used to.

Ken Lucci 4:08

what year was this? Roughly?

The Nice Brothers 4:10

Early seventies. Uh, no, my, my brother started the rental car business in 1979, but, uh, this was, uh, in 1985 during, uh, college. So it years for.

Ken Lucci 4:22

Wow. Wow. And Mike, when did you join the family business?

The Nice Brothers 4:26

So, you know, in, in the early years, uh, probably during, you know, college or during high school, the summertimes I would spend as at the business, whether it was cleaning cars, fixing up things around the office, et cetera. and as Tim said, it was only a, you know, a car rental company at that point. Then during college, I continued to work there part-time as the limousine and car rental businesses grew, um, and then eventually to a, full-time position overseeing and managing the car rental division, um, where we grew that to multiple branches. Um, and I think we had 450 Renta cars, uh, at, at, you know, the final stages before I left the company.

Ken Lucci 5:06

And, and Tim, when do you, when would you say the limousine side of things took off?

The Nice Brothers 5:12

what we discovered was that. We were doing business with on. Panasonics, the Hoffman, the Roches, the, the Becton Dickinson's of the world. They were, uh, you know, they would get some, you know, rent a car replacements, but on a daily basis they were doing, you know, 5, 10, 15, 20 rides to the, uh, the airports because the, these were their headquarters. And, um, so the activity was, was significant compared to just the, uh, the Renta car business. And they complimented each other because they were happy with our service on the one side. And, um, I can remember, like it was, it was yesterday walking into and, and, um, the office and them handing me an envelope with 30 trip tickets in it. And the, uh, the old man said to me, he said. Take this, envelope kid and don't screw it up. And he says, you'll have a big opportunity. And I, I went back to the office and, uh, I shared it with my, uh, older brother and I said, uh, I think we hit the jackbot here. And, uh, that's, that's kind of, you know, how it, how it took off. And we went from there. We joined a program called Club Chauffeur, which was a Diners Club program, through a network. And in that network everybody had one car and was the driver. And we had a pretty significant. Fleet of, you know, uh, passenger vans, all different types of, of vehicles. And we said to them, if we have more than one or two drivers, could we put them on the network as well? And they said, sure. So, uh, through that Clump chafer program, we started to get, you know, kind of consistent work. It helped fill in the gaps. and, and that really was, uh, was helpful. We did the, uh, anytime they needed big things done, we had, you know, 15 passenger vans. So they, they'd call us and say, we need, you know, five vans for the, uh, the Prince, you know, concert at Madison Square Garden for, uh, for 10 days. And we were the only people in that network at that time who were able to provide that, you know, type of, uh, transportation. And we

Ken Lucci 7:23

the name of the company at Go.

The Nice Brothers 7:25

State leasing and rent a car. And then, you know, garden State Limousine was the, uh, was the, uh, transportation company.

Ken Lucci 7:31

When did you, when did it become, or tell me the transition between Garden State Limousine and Flight Time.

The Nice Brothers 7:39

So, um, in, uh, 1997, um, I guess we, uh, there was, uh, a transaction that was contemplated between, uh, precept, business systems that was gonna buy, uh, garden State at that time. And, uh, my brother wanted to, uh, to sell the, uh, the transportation business, at that point, that summer, I, uh, I left the business and, um, you know. All of the, uh, the people reported to me as well as all the customers. So we, we had a pretty good, uh, opportunity there. I didn't want to be, uh, part of, uh, that transaction. So I went off on my own and, uh, I bought, you know, half of, uh, flight time to continue what we had been, you know, building.

Ken Lucci 8:36

Now, when did Mike join you at flight time?

The Nice Brothers 8:39

So just to take a step back, so I was at Garden State, you know, with Tim for those many years, and then I left prior to him. So I left, you know, probably a few months prior to him. Um, and then I, I took a sabbatical from the ground transportation space and went into, uh, emergency dispatching and managing 9 1 1 Center. So I was at the state police in New Jersey and then a, a local police department in New Jersey. So I was overseeing all the communications and 9 1 1 centers and staffing for, for those, uh, facilities for probably about, 10 years. So, I took a 10 year sabbatical. I think I joined flight time in 2005. 2005. Yeah.

Ken Lucci 9:17

so so let's just stop there for a second. how would you say your experience on the emergency services side and dispatching has helped you in setting up the dispatching and logistics department? At my limo, I, I know it's you, you guys have, I've been there. I've, I've seen the multiple screens, the many screens. tell me a little bit about the, the commonalities between those two things.

The Nice Brothers 9:40

Well, I think, you know, the first thing is you, you have to have, you know, seamless communication. and obviously you have to enable your teams with the technology and the tools that are available. and one of the things, you know, that I learned from my dispatch. Experience, especially the state police where we were in a dispatch center, which dispatched the entire northern half of the state of New Jersey, we answered a couple million 9 1 1 calls a month. So we were operating in a dispatch center with, you know, 10 or 15 dispatchers on a shift with multiple screens, you know, lots of technology around us. so that was really, you know, when I wanted to, you know, uh, build this office space here for my limousine, I said, you know, I wanna give the tools and the technology that my team needs to really do the job effectively. The days of dispatching from, you know, when we first started we had paper trip tickets and we were moving them around on a, a, a peg board, you know, completed trips, moved down to the bottom and, you know, assign the next day's work. Those days are over. Everything is now, you know, technology and app based. So. My dispatchers have a samsara screen on where they're watching the telematics. They have the Santa Cruz screens, They're using, you know, flight tracking software. They're using text messaging software. So at any one given time, if I go into my dispatch department, I look at my dispatcher screens, he could have 15, 20 tabs open up on a web browser. So, by giving them four screens or multiple screens, it allows them to move those windows as they see fit and really do their job more effectively. So I think that's really the key, you know, takeaway from, the emergency dispatch side of it is having the technology and the tools available for your dispatchers to make the job easier.

Ken Lucci 12:30

Well, the other thing I noticed when I was there is it's an incredibly sterile environment and it's quiet.

The Nice Brothers 12:38

the days of, you know, Louie and the, uh, cage and from taxi Dec cab are over. we've all been to, you know, other transportation companies, whether it's black car companies in the city and in Long Island. You know, they, some of them still have that type of environment. And especially, you know, the corporate world when you're handling large scale events, when a, a booker or an admin calls up, they don't wanna hear screaming in the background. They wanna hear a, you know, a controlled environment where, your call takers, your dispatchers are controlling the call. They're thoroughly trained properly, uh, you know, to handle the, uh, the call and, uh, you know, whatever the, the request is

Ken Lucci 13:17

Well, and I, I always say this, chaos in the office or chaos in dispatch usually translates to chaos on the street. Where somebody on the street doesn't know what they're doing, ends up making mistakes. So take us back to Tim. Take us back to 2005, and I want you to think back then what were the biggest challenges to that business? And now let's translate it into what challenges are there today? What challenges did you have back then?

The Nice Brothers 13:47

So when I, when I took over flight time, um, in, uh, 97, to Mike's point, the first thing I did was, um, I threw out all the paper because at that point, at Garden State, we had transitioned to, you know, electronic, you know, dispatching. and so that was long ago. So when I, when I came in, they had a great, you know, framework and a great crew of people in place at Flight Town. I had been there for many, many years. If I could just interrupt real quick, I think, you know, when we left Garden State, we had probably 175 cars in the limo fleet and 450 rent Acar. So mm-hmm. When he says that we transitioned to, you know, dispatching via software as opposed to paper, that was a pretty big feat You know, during that time period for a company of our size. Yeah, absolutely. you know, and we had great, you know, people there as, as well, um, you know, at Garden State that grown up many out there. They just hadn't adopted the, uh, the electronic technology. You know, we were in able to increase our efficiency by 20% overnight, uh, with the, uh, the business that, they had. And we went from, you know, 4 million in business in 97, in, in five years we were doing 40 million. and that

Ken Lucci 15:11

10. That's literally the 10 x growth that everybody likes to

The Nice Brothers 15:15

correct, but, and, and a so over a hundred people came with us over the, transition, to fly time. who had worked for us through the years and, uh, you know. Many of the, uh, the clients as, as well, they, uh, they wanted to, uh, to continue with, uh, the team that was in place. So it was, it was a really, you know, great opportunity. and from there, we doubled it again, in size, at, some point in 2001, we had built a, uh, a brand new facility and, uh, we were scheduled to move in the week of nine 11.

Ken Lucci 15:50

Wow.

The Nice Brothers 15:51

Yeah. And, uh, it was a big facility for us, big move for for the whole company. We owned the property. It was, it was just, you know, fantastic. And we were very excited. you know, we made it through nine 11, uh, very difficult, you know, and then being in the New York market, you know, and challenges for, uh, for all the families who were involved in, in that area. and then a few years later I just, I just found myself. That the, the business had outgrown the people who were there and we needed, you know, some, super smart people to come in and, and lead the way. So I kind of ambushed him. I invited him out to dinner and I said, Hey, why don't we have dinner? You know, one night it was a steak dinner I couldn't refuse. And he goes, why? I said, well, it's just your brother. I wanna, I wanna take you out, you know, and, and, and have you for dinner. So I'm, I'm telling him about some of the issues and he goes, yeah, it sounds like, the transportation business that I left. I said, no, no, it's much better now been, you know. So it took a little cajoling. but, uh, you know, but finally, uh, you know, uh, you know, he came along, uh, you know, with us and, uh, you know, worked.

Ken Lucci 17:12

What function? What function did he, when he initially came in,

The Nice Brothers 17:16

Operations, you know, manager, you know, uh, where he was. He was able to, uh, to help us, you know, uh, you know, lead the, the operations side because, you know, Mike's forte is, operational excellence as well as, you know, as you pointed out all the technology and, and, uh, the adoption, of that and the best ways to do it. So he's very process driven and, um, you know, that's something that, you know, we really, you know, really needed at that time. Yeah. And one thing, you know, he had a, uh, a great team in place already, and a lot of them were legacy employees from the, the prior ownership. So he was obviously concerned about bringing in his brother or somebody new over those folks. So, you know, I, I came in at a lower level, but I was able to, you know, win those people over. And obviously they understood, you know, what we were trying to do to help. Build the business, bring better technology. So I think, you know, when I joined, we had the one location, and then, you know, by the time it was sold, we had, uh, six different locations around the country, six different branch offices around the country, which we had all

Ken Lucci 18:27

How big, How big did you grow it from? So you, the, the, the legacy business was your father-in-law's business? Correct. And

The Nice Brothers 18:35

correct.

Ken Lucci 18:36

that was, at that time it was a $4 million operation.

The Nice Brothers 18:39

Right.

Ken Lucci 18:40

And then how did you get it to 40 million? What strategies did you use? What do you think, if you had to point to the top three things that that allowed that exponential growth? What was it?

The Nice Brothers 18:55

I think it's, it's all about the people. It's, it's all about the people, you know, and, and the only thing that ever differentiated us, you know, uh, was the, the, the great people who were part of our team. And, uh, you know, that that was definitely, you know, the, uh, the differentiator. Everybody's got shiny cars and, you know, and, and, uh, different technologies and things like that. And the people and who care, and, you know, will go the extra mile for, uh, for the customer are really the, the most important, you know, piece of the puzzle. And, and like I said, a hundred of them from the original company came, came with us, you know, from the chauffeur pool, all, all the way up to the dispatchers. And that was the key. I think when you look back at, you know. Those early two thousands or mid 2000 years, the thing that really differentiated us was customer service and the fact that we never said no. Mm-hmm. And whether it was handling an event, whether it was specialized billing and reporting that you wanted. If our software didn't have it, we built it. Mm-hmm. You know, there was never a no to our clients, and that's what clients liked about us. In addition to, you know, beautiful cars, great chauffeur, great people answering the phones, it was our ability to say yes and deliver whatever they needed that really helped differentiate us. And I think that's what our clients would say. I, I, it was funny, I had a, I had a call the other day with one of our top, uh, VP of, uh, sales who had worked for us. And we had, we had a, a discussion the other day and, and such a great guy. And, and, uh, I was talking to him and he said, I can remember coming out of sales, you know, visits with clients and, you know, there'd be three people from the team there along with, with me. And you know, they'd look and they'd say, we can do that. And I'd say, well, don't worry. We'll figure it out. And that was, that was, we, did you.

Ken Lucci 20:57

Yeah. And there's a, there's a lot to that. There's a tremendous amount to that that I think a lot of companies have forgotten. the customer does not exist to live by our rules or to, to bend to what operationally, is, convenient for us. The ability to say yes in the service business. I don't know why that's an anathema to so many companies, but it seems to be, if, unless it fits into their definition of convenience. I don't know how they survive. The ability to say yes we can is the difference between good and great? To me it's, it's totally the difference. You, you, you know, you hit upon something, everybody, and I see it all the time on Facebook, we see it all the time on Facebook and we laugh about it together, is, oh, I got a brand new Escalade. It's 118,000. I have a brand new sprinter I just paid 208,000 for, or whatever the case is. and at the end of the day, I submit to you until you tell me whether you agree with this. You know, a three-year-old Escalade with a fantastic chauffeur and a company that says, yes, we can do this. Don't worry about it. We've got you covered Every time, you know, that beats out brand new vehicle that came off the lot and a so-so chauffeur and a so-so customer experience where you know, the person's asking dispatch. It, it just doesn't, to me, that's the difference between good and great. That's the difference between just a so-so level service and top shelf, five star, um, customer service.

The Nice Brothers 22:31

It's, it's funny you mentioned, you know, the, the vehicle type in those more expensive vehicles. You know, when the Lincoln Town car was decommissioned to end of life by four, uh, we started switch. And looking at different vehicle options. So we, we tried a prototype or a beta test with some Chrysler, three hundreds. We did it in our Philadelphia market and ran 'em all in Philadelphia. And we sent out surveys, client surveys after like three or four months. And we said, you know, we're transitioning vehicles. What do you think about the, the new vehicles that you've been experiencing in the Philadelphia market? If we were to transition to these, you know, full-time in all places, what, what would you think? And I think we had 4,000 respondents who said, I don't care what you pick me up in, as long as the vehicle's clean the chauffeur knows where he is going and they're on time. So those three factors, in addition to, you know, the quality customer service when they're making the booking and the correct billing on the backside, those are really the factors that drive your business and really define what customer service is in this business.

Ken Lucci 23:35

And no pushback when, so in, sometimes I'll walk into a dispatching department and the dispatchers is probably, I think you'd agree, one of the most hectic. Positions in the company if you let it be, if they let it be, if that's the culture, if the culture is more towards, you know, Louis the taxi dispatcher, you know, then, traffic control, ground, ground control type thing. But I see some dispatchers pushing back with clients on the phone and I, I think they lose sight. Yes. Your job is about logistics, but your job is also mo more importantly about managing customer expectations. So you are in one of the busiest trafficked areas in the country. I mean, how do you deal with, uh, a car that you think is not gonna be on time? How do you, save the, the reputation when the vehicle is, things are not going as well? Well as planned,

The Nice Brothers 24:32

I, I think for the New York market, advent of, telematics has completely changed that game, so. When we started dispatching years ago via paper without GPS, we were relying on Tony to tell us how far he was from Newark Airport, and hopefully Tony was giving us an accurate ETA or the client would be very upset. Today, in real time we can check that, you know, through a variety of systems. We have, you know, our primary telematics system, Samsara, that we're utilizing. We also have a secondary telematics system on the tablets, the chauffeur's tablets that we can check their timing. So that really enables us to be much more proactive when it comes to monitoring, chauffeur's arrival times and whether or not they're gonna make, their pickups on time. So it gives us, you know, a more advanced view of whether or not we're going to be on time if we need to make a change. And having a larger fleet, obviously that helps you. Puzzle pieces around the event of a, you know, potential service. Yeah. And, and, and at flight time in our heyday, uh, Ken, we were doing over, over 3000 trips a day system wide. So we had built technology. Surrounding that to Mike's point about, you know, if it wasn't, available, we, built it. know, we had a, uh, a team of technology folks that, you know, grew up in the business with us. And, we never said no. We said, you know, we told them to go build the space shuttle, you know, they'd build it and we'd find, folks who would, uh, we could pay to, uh, to be on our team. And, you know, at that time, we, built, you know, many, many things including a global, affiliate rate engine. We built technology to, to track all of the, uh, the vehicles and countdown to, you know, when they were gonna, be at their, their next job or, available in, in the next zone. that was a big piece of the puzzle in order for us to, uh, you know, to be able to really expand that business. We built M-S-S-M-S technology before it was even a thing. prior to being offered by any of the software providers, we had it, we built it. Yeah. We got shuttle booking tools. Yeah. I mean, you know, we had all of these things, that we built through, you know, our developers built Yeah. That were add-ons to our existing software platform, but they were integrated. as I said earlier, it was about, you know, we could do it if a customer asked, we could do it. And we delivered it. We took over Virgin Atlantic, the program in New York. It was 200 JFK pickups and drop offs a day. Said to, uh, to them, we said, well, you know, all these international cell phones that people are arriving, you know, they're texting back and forth. What happens to the text message you know, if if they respond to it, they said, oh, it just falls on the floor. Nobody responds to it. We said, huh. So, so we built the technology to read the text messages, and then to have them go to the dispatch department because it was especially important when you're picking up people at office buildings in, in New York City that, said, you know, I'm, I'm coming out the, the door, on 35th Street instead of 36th Street. You take an hour to go around the block if you move. So, we trained if it was for within an hour of that, we sent the message not only to the dispatcher, we sent it to the driver. So we did all of that and uh, you know, we, uh, we ended up at the point, you know, uh, later on where we bought the software company for five and a half million dollars. You know, that was af and you know, we had, we had customized it, you know, so, so much and, so well, that the trips would come in electronically from all the booking channels. And if it was for a network trip anywhere in, in the world, it would automatically be routed to the network provider who, uh, who provided that, uh, that service for us with real time pricing and, you know, availability and mm-hmm. All, all the, the bells and whistles, some of them that, you know, a lot of operators don't have today, unfortunately. Right. And we should. Mm-hmm.

Ken Lucci 28:25

correct me if I'm wrong, but the reason why it worked so well was because in real time you took a problem, you took an operational problem, and you put it minds on top of it to solve it. Whereas I think everybody in the industry would agree at this point that there is a large gap between the day-to-day operation of a business and the intricacies of today's operation and the software companies, they almost exist in a vacuum. I, I think, to me, is frustrating because what you proved with, with flight time and owning AF and all the things you added to it was you can solve these problems if you understand the operational issue.

The Nice Brothers 29:11

Right. the key was, you know, you had people involved, in operations as well as the IT side, that, and they understood both sides of the puzzle. So our IT folks were industry veterans who understood travel ground transportation, who lived in it, who worked in it at some point. So they weren't just, you know, software developers sitting in a, a room somewhere developing code. They understood the transportation space, and that's really the key. Mm-hmm. And in 1997, for example, when they, they first came out with the, the technology that later became, you know, uh, Saturn and, and, and ground span, we were the, uh, the first company on that. And, you know, we. We went to, you know, to Carlson Travel and installed the software, the first install of, uh, the Genesis reservation system, you know, in 1997 at, uh, you know, a division of Bayer pharmaceuticals and on every computer in the travel department. And we were off to the races. From there, we went to thousands and thousands of electronic transactions from, you know, corporations all over the country.

Ken Lucci 30:19

So flash forward today. What do you see? As you know, the reason why I wanted you both on here is there are not too many people. That had successfully gone from several chapters and done really well, hit it out of the park, and then had a chance to be at the helm of another ship and do it again. Now, in Mike's case, and I, I hear it out in the marketplace, my limo was a nice sleeper of a company. And then Mike, is now really putting it into warp speed. Um, as, as, as, uh, you're a 50, 50% owner now, right, Mike? And just to be clear, Tim is not an owner at all in my limo, just so everybody knows that. Okay. But my limo was a great brand, but it was, in my estimation, at least before you took the helm of it, it was just there. Whereas now you're pushing the envelope. you're, you're post on social media. I see you out in the marketplace. I see you at every association and. You are definitely one of the top three, top five in that marketplace, and you're a contender, I think formidable as far as competing with. Now in Tim's case, we dealt with, the Hoffman family of companies when we, sold pure luxury and they were interesting as a buyer. Very interesting as a buyer still are, but I never heard Hoffman mentioned in terms of a contender as a network until you came on the scene, until they bought Dolphin and basically put you in charge of the transportation side. So you're both at the helm of, of some, you know, pretty exciting stuff. what are your biggest challenges, and what do you see the biggest opportunities of the next five years? What are your biggest challenges first, and then let's hit the opportunities.

The Nice Brothers 32:12

So I think I, you know, I'll start, uh, from a, from a company perspective, I think, you know, you, as you mentioned, my limo company's been around for a long time, over 40 years. Great business.

Ken Lucci 32:24

Legacy brand. Nicely known.

The Nice Brothers 32:26

top three as far as fleet size in, you know, the, the, the marketplace. but with the thing that, you know, it didn't have, it didn't have the name recognition in the corporate circles. So one of the things that I noticed when I came here and when I went out to, corporate travel events, GBTA events, people would say, oh, you know, how long have you been in business if we've never heard of you. And I, I told them 40 years, and they would be shocked. So we've really focused on brand recognition and getting our name out there. Spending a lot of extra dollars on advertising and marketing. as far as, you know, industry challenges, I think, you know, regardless of what market you're in, the largest challenge for any of us is, insurance at this point. Um, and beyond that, I would say is, you know, technology and being able to keep up with technology. I think we're behind the eight ball as it relates to technology, and those two are, really the, key factors. And again, I think it's a nationwide problem with unlicensed operators, taking share of market from us. So we have to work twice as hard to. Deliver the same amount of trips and revenue that we did five, 10 years ago. So, you know, again, customer loyalty, delivering that, that great customer experience is key. and being in front of people top of mind, because if we're not top of mind, somebody else is gonna be there to take them to the airport, so,

Ken Lucci 34:58

A hundred percent staying top of mind and making sure they know everything that you do. I had a conversation with an operator the other day that we've, we've kind of ushered them into the motor coach space and we did an analysis for 'em and said, look, look at your top 20 clients. They obviously love you because they're using your sedans and SUVs. Not so much on Vans, not so much on Minis and not one motor coach reservation yet. These are all opportunities, so that's a good thing. But top of mind, we're only, you know, one trip away from losing an account and they're not sitting on our website trying to figure out how to use us. We constantly have to be communicating with them, and I know you're doing that. Because you, you know, everywhere I turn around at association meetings, you're there. and I know some of the other stuff you're trying to do on the corporate side. So let's, we're gonna circle back on insurance 'cause that's a big topic. But Tim, what do you see as your biggest challenges as you, as you put everything together and where do you see the opportunities over the next five?

The Nice Brothers 36:02

So, you know. I stayed on to be, uh, uh, chairman of the board, um, north America after Addison Lee bought the business in, uh, 2017 and, um, in, in, uh, 2019, moved on. I had a house in, Florida for many years. And when I went down there, I was, I was renovating my house and I said to my wife, I said, I'm gonna buy the biggest company in, in Naples, just fun. And she said, are you out of your mind? And I said, well, I said, I just, you know, had the largest sale in the industry's history. And I said, I'm, I'm, I'm only in my fifties and I'm kind of, you know, Jones do something. And, uh, so, um, you know, we bought, uh, dolphin in September of 19. And as everybody knows, you know, we we had huge plans, lots of great things, planned to, uh, for, uh, for Dolphin, at that time. And, um. then COVID hit as everybody knew, and, and we spent the next, two years of our life. I think that, you know, it's a, it's a, uh, gap in everybody's resume. What'd you do for two years? Well, what we did was, you know, the public started ringing from all the, uh, the local operators who had big problems. They had challenges that their, their insurance was, uh, was, uh, they couldn't pay it on their vehicles. Their cars weren't gonna get repossessed. They had personal guarantees, and we said, well, why don't you come with us? We got a, a parking lot here of over a hundred cars, and if it comes back, we'll put, you know, some of those cars to do your work. And we'll pay you every nickel that it was worth in 2019. So we started signing them up 'cause the cars had value. They dumped their fleet. I sold a couple of them, their fleets in one day. You know, some of 'em had 20 cars, you know, one, one check, you know, was written and, and they were happy to get out of it. And, uh, we put together, uh, a deal there with, uh, you know, six or seven companies, um, you know, several in, uh, in Sarasota, several in Naples, and you know, a big one in Miami. And, um, we put it all together and, you know, getting rid of all the equipment. We never envisioned the supply chain issues when it, it came back. But, uh, we figured that out and the, the staffing issues as well. so when it was all said and done, you know, we had it all on one platform. You, we, the time to integrate everything so that we're basking Robs on the front end, but on the back it's all completely seamless. Mike would've been proud of me as a matter of fact, you know, to, uh, to do that. But I had the time.

Ken Lucci 38:31

sounds like a, it sounds like a little bit of the operational efficiency might have rubbed off brother to brother.

The Nice Brothers 38:38

So, uh, and at, at, later on, we, uh, you mentioned the, uh, the Hopman, uh, you know, family of companies. Uh, later on they, uh, they were looking for, uh, platform because they had bought, to your point, several companies around the country. Uh, we had a platform because we had, you know, bought the seven companies and fully integrated them. And they liked the fact that we were a platform that that could, put that together for them. Uh, in addition to that, they had, you know, bought the best in class providers all over the, uh, the country, which really was exciting to me to work with. Those, those folks, and many of 'em met them work for us in our affiliate network in, in flight time for, uh, for many years. But, All great, companies and, you know, great opportunity to work together with them and the family of, uh, of companies. You know, the Hoffmans have been great. it's a multi vertical, multi-billion dollar company that, you know, has a lot of opportunity to help these owners who are, are looking to, uh, to do a transaction and a transition. And we continue to, uh, to do that. And we're focused on the, uh, the premium market. That's really the, the business that we're in. Um, and, uh, Mike's doing the same in, uh, in my limo, he's taking it to the next level. he just hasn't, and, uh, Howard, the, uh, the original owner and Stu, great people know them for, uh, 30, 40 years and had a great business. And they're excited that Mike and the team here are leading it to the next level.

Ken Lucci 40:05

So, let's get, let's circle back on the insurance piece because this is, this is, uh, I, I, think there are a lot of operators that are still os ostriches and I think there's a lot of operators who are blindsided when they come to renewal time and their insurance has gone up 40%. And the, common refrain I hear is, well quote, my loss runs aren't that bad. and it's just, I have to shake my head. They come to us in one of two ways. Number one, they come to us to say, I need to sell my business because my fleet insurance has gone up to a point where I can't afford it. I don't have the money for the down payment. That's number one. Or number two, they'll come to us through a buyer, through another operator. Who would they have called with the same situation, and instead of selling the company on the open market, they'll be forced, they'll sell it to a friendly operator. This has happened, no, no less than a dozen times in the past 90 days. And the commonalities is, it's certainly in the tri-state market. We're seeing it in the Florida market. We're seeing it in California, but we're also seeing it in Michigan. So I think people are still not grasping that this is somebody else's problem. No, it's not. I actually have a client that was in a captive and his loss runs were, quote, not that bad, but he got kicked out. He basically, my estimation, took the eye off the ball. So how do you create a, culture of safety and how do you mitigate, against the catastrophic accident or the catastrophic event? How do you instill safety, uh, into your operations?

The Nice Brothers 41:55

So, uh, I'll start. So one of the, you know, the things that's, that's really interesting. I was just reading a, a report that's gonna be published shortly regarding insurance in, in our industry. And one of the stats that just made my head shake was only 46% of folks in the industry are utilizing cameras and telematics. So probably in 2002. We started using, the early drive cam camera systems. Yeah. Okay. And,

Ken Lucci 42:26

Yep.

The Nice Brothers 42:27

the immediate return on investment was amazing. Oh my God. Not only, you know, phantom damage to the vehicles, wear and tear and, and maintenance on the vehicles, but also having that, view of what actually happened in the accident. The stopping the, he said, she said, so, you know, as an industry we have to do better because if only 46% of our, industry folks are using cameras, that's a real problem. Yeah. And until we get to a hundred percent adoption as an industry, we're gonna continue to have a, an insurance crisis. So. The losses, you know, the, the catastrophic losses that you talk about, you know, they are certainly increased by the lack of telematics usage. They're increased by these nuclear verdicts, and the tort reform that needs to happen in these key markets. When you drive through, whether it's New Jersey Drive through Philadelphia, Florida, and there's a billboard every 600 yards for another personal injury attorney, that's a problem. And we've talked about it as an industry and all the different associations. It's a state by state issue. It needs to be tackled on a state by state issue, but on A national level, something needs to happen, because it's putting people outta business every day. Yeah.

Ken Lucci 43:40

A hundred percent. And, what, gets me when I talk to these operators, you know, there's one specific case, actually a couple of them where the operators came to us a couple years ago wanting to sell their businesses. And one of my key questions is, well, what do you think it's worth? And when we are so far apart and so far out on reality, I say, you know, that's, that's just not what these things are worth. In both cases, recently they came back to me with this insurance crisis, and I reminded them that when we talked two years ago, you weren't making a profit. You were paying yourself a nice income, but you weren't making a profit so you couldn't update your fleet, and you looked upon telematics as an expense. Okay? To me, you have to change that. It's like a gym membership it's not an expense unless you don't use it. It. Telematics, if you are used properly, can change the muscle memory of your drivers. I'll give you a a a, this is a real world example. About three weeks ago, I had a situation where a car was stopped on a main drag right in front of me, and I was coming up over a hill and, and the vehicle was stopped in the middle of the street and it's a 45 mile an hour street, double yellow line. And I beat my horn and the guy didn't have his hazards on. He had a, it was a boat trailer. And I was like in shock because the car in front of me had to swerve onto the other side of the road. Well, the guy got upset that I beat my horn. So long story short, he didn't pull me out of the, the truck. I went and I got cameras and the guy says to me, do you want a camera that looks inside and being the vain little bastard that I am? Said, sure. Right. Well wait a minute. Then I looked at the, then I looked at the footage. I'm like, this, I never would've imagined the number of frigging times. My eyes are not on the road. I'm looking at the dog. I'm looking like this. I never would've imagined, and I haven't had an accident in years, but that's not the point. if I didn't look at the telematics and I didn't see my behavior, I wouldn't have changed it. So when I look at an operator who says it's an expense, to me, it's the ultimate training tool of your chauffeurs, because they're alone and they think they're good drivers.

The Nice Brothers 46:03

Completely shortsighted, thinking of it as as an expense what it is. You know, it, it's a way to, uh, to make sure you train your chauffeurs. And how do you te protect your business from going outta business? What keeps us in business, right? one of the most important piece of the puzzle, unfortunately today is the insurance. And if you don't, next thing you know, the insurance company is your partner. Okay, so it's the biggest issue going on. Mike and I are very involved with associations. I'm involved with the National Limousine Association, the Florida Limousine Association, the New Jersey Association still that I was president of for, for many years. And now Mike is president and it's the biggest, you know, thing that, that we see, uh, all across the country. As Mike mentioned in 2002, uh, our good friend Kurt Andrews from Drive Cam showed up on our doorstep and did a pilot program with us at flight time. We put the cameras in the cars and, the guy who ran our fleet maintenance department said, I wanna put it in the cars. The guys whose brakes wear out the fastest. I wanna see what's going on. Well, we did the pilot with like, you know, 10 cars, I think, and they came back, right? And we saw the results and we said, oh my God, okay, talk about phantom damage. Talk about, you know, whatever. Driving like a maniac. We immediately. Went right, marched right down to the bank and we said, listen, we need 350,000 bucks. And they said, for what? We said cameras right now for every car, you know, and we rolled out the program to every car overnight, and it was the best money we ever spent. And that's how long we've been using telematics. And, and you talk about, you know, modifying driver behavior. Those were the cameras where they had to physically come back to the office Oh, Yeah. To download the camera. It was torturing. So they, they, would have to drive to the office to download the camera, and then they would have a counseling session with the chauffeur manager, right, to talk about their driver behavior. Now with AI and all the advanced technology. The driver of the chauffeur is getting, you know, instant alerts when they're distracted, when they're driving aggressively. Yeah. So it's come, the technology's come so much further and makes it so much easier from an operational perspective to be able to manage it, you know? So, The tools are there. We have to adopt the the whole goal is you're trying to avoid the big one. As you mentioned. You were, you were distracted and looking at that in your vehicle, right? what we do is train. Okay. And James, I'm sorry you're not here today. We miss you too, because you do great work. Okay. Great work. James. Did I mention

Ken Lucci 48:45

James, Blaine. James Blaine from PS Training does fantastic work.

The Nice Brothers 48:49

does fantastic work. my Director of Safety and Compliance, Mike Davis swears by him and, uh, so many of our, fellow affiliates do, and, you know, our, fellow Hoffman companies as well. And the whole goal is about, avoiding the, uh, the big one. and as Mike mentioned, the new technology is now so much better. Every time that they come out with something, I then turn around and I torture Mike Davis, who works for us, and I say, Hey, Mike, look at this new feature that, you know, it says, please slow down when you get to a certain mile per hour. Or it says, you know, please wear your seat belts when you get in the car. It's, it's muscle memory as Mike's said. And, and there ways to avoid that. And, uh, it's really all we can do to try to, you know, ingrain upon them that the safety, uh, is, is very, very important. and insurance is what keeps us in business.

Ken Lucci 49:39

Well, and, you know, I'll just give a shout out. I, I, I talk a lot to Tim Delaney. I talk a lot to the guys from research underwriter, Steve Freeberg and Andrew Don, and. Uh, they lament the fact that a lot of operators still think, well, you are going up on me and your price. These guys have no choice. There's no one clamoring to get into the commercial fleet insurance business, uh, last three years in a row for every a hundred dollars they've taken in the industry has collectively lost $104. It's not a sustainable business model. from a standpoint of, you know, you bring up PACS training, which I think is another, way to create a culture of safety. And James and I lament a lot about what we do, and someone will look at our product, our, our course, or our services, our financial, uh, review and profit improvement service. And they're like, that's pretty expensive. And I'm like, basically, we guarantee to improve your profits in James Case. To me that program is, it should have been, I wish it was around 20 years ago when I was an operator, but that program is a game changer for your operation. It tells your, your chauffeur department or your chauffeur's, individual chauffeurs that you are serious about a customer service, superior customer service, and maximum safety. I don't know why. Operators, again, they consider it an expense. Okay. When James can demonstrate, not that this is a commercial forum, but he can demonstrate the change in behavior when you implement all of the strategies that he has.

The Nice Brothers 51:17

question

Ken Lucci 51:18

it, is it the operators that perhaps are just, you know, they're in their own echo chamber. They've been doing this for so long. I haven't needed it up till now. What is it?

The Nice Brothers 51:28

So, so I, I, you know, if you go back 20 years to Tommy MA's training videos

Ken Lucci 51:34

God bless

The Nice Brothers 51:35

and, you look at where it's come and, and now it's, you know, the PACS training program, which, you know, Bruce and James have built. So it went from, you know, how to be a chauffeur to how to be a safe chauffeur. And that's what it's about. It's. Provides that safety culture for your new employees. And I could tell you from a my limo perspective, after we implemented, you know, pax, we saw immediate, immediate improvement in service delivery, safety, quantifiable increases in survey scores across the board. So it was a fantastic, yeah. So you have to live it. It's, again, safety culture is, is something that, you know, is across the board in your company and you have to live it. But, for folks that don't adopt these platforms, whether it's James' or someone else's, you have to talk to other operators, see what they're doing, and talk to people that, that, you know, have adopted and say, you know, where have you seen the return on investment? Because we've all seen the return on investment. So that's really the.

Ken Lucci 52:39

if you're using it. If you're using it,

The Nice Brothers 52:42

Yeah, sadly, most of 'em react, when it's too late, or the challenges already, you know, uh, on their doorstep. And, you know, that's one of the, those are probably the people that, that are talking to you about, you, know, how do you, you know, get out those situations. But, uh, you're right, you know, folks like Tim Delaney has done a, you know, a a lot for the industry. His, his dad, uh, they insured us for many, many years at, uh, at flight time. Great company at Lance to, uh, work. They were pushing cameras 20 years ago. Yeah. They were gi they were giving us the cameras, correct. They, they, they were offering the cameras, you know, for, uh, for that. And they were, you know, ahead of their time. And, uh, they also had a fantastic, you know, uh, department that subrogated against people who hit you, you know, so. There was, there was, you know, really, uh, you know, great, you know, company there to, uh, to work with. And, uh, we've solved that problem at the, uh, Hoffman Transportation Group, uh, you know, for the, for the moment by having, uh, our own captive. So that's one of the commitments the family has made, for the 150 companies, uh, that they own in, in the multi vertical, space, you know, is, is the fact that they set up their own captive, which is, uh, fantastic.

Ken Lucci 53:52

But you can't maintain the captive unless you are maintaining maximum safety.

The Nice Brothers 53:57

Correct? Absolutely

Ken Lucci 53:59

Absolutely and to me it's the ultimate competitive differentiator as well. Did you both see the situation where the Uber driver basically cold cock that CEO down in Charleston?

The Nice Brothers 54:10

incredible. Oh yeah. Incredible.

Ken Lucci 54:11

Okay. Well, you know, one of my clients gives that guy rides to and from the airport. But you know, for, for local trips, I understand he uses Uber. But at the end of the day, safety is our ultimate differentiator along with quality service. And if you are delivering Soso quality service and you're delivering Soso safety, you are really no better than the lowest common denominator competitor in your market. you know, was thinking today I am walking into the place that I have lunch at, and they get a lousy, uh, health score, a lousy health score, and it, the Health Department score, got plastered on the front, and, and they have to keep that up there for 30 days. And I know the owner, he's a local guy, I like to do business with him, and he bought the franchise and I said, listen, what the hell happened? He said, well, you know, we had a situation you know, with a cleaning company. I said, well, you better straighten that up because no offense, I'm buying it today, but I'm not buying it tomorrow. If we had to post a safety score on every one of our vehicles, and so did the TNCs. I think you'd have a completely different market,

The Nice Brothers 55:17

Yeah, as you saw from the NLA, posted, news article that came out regarding the assaults, you know, it, uh, it's much more pervasive than just that one that you saw that was all, all over the news. And, it's sickening and, you know, fast and cheap is not, the way to go through life, uh, and to protect yourself from danger. And unfortunately, that that's, you know, some of the, uh, the situations that have transpired because of the advent of these TNC companies.

Ken Lucci 55:50

no question. But you know, you guys have made, significant investments in the, business, in your businesses. Where do you see the opportunities over the next five years?

The Nice Brothers 55:59

I think the opportunities are gonna be, uh, in the group transportation. Obviously, you know, we're looking at whether it's, uh, you know, AVS and, and robo taxis. Obviously, you gotta keep a close watch on that and see how that's going to change our industry. So we'll see what the, the chauffeur of today becomes in the next five years? But I think, uh, larger group transportation is gonna continue to thrive. And, you know, again, adoption of technology. we need to advance in technology in order to stay competitive and to stay, uh, you Relevant. Agreed. And I, I, I think that, you know, um, it's a premium, service. and in the premium market, I think, um, you know, there's, still a lot of, opportunity for, uh, for growth as we're seeing. I think that a lot of the, uh, things that are going on in the, uh, you know, the marketplace will get settled, uh, regarding, you know, tariffs and things like that. but the premium marketplace as well as the, uh, uh, meetings and events marketplace, there's a lot of that going on. We lost half of the, uh, the motor coach companies in the US during COVID and, the supply chain. To rebuild that pool of vehicles also is an ongoing, challenge. And, you know, they're, they're subject to, uh, to tariffs as well because they're not building them America. So that's, you know, something that's, you know, on, on a lot of people's radar as well. as it continues to grow, we think it'll be an area for growth for all the.

Ken Lucci 57:36

I agree, a thousand percent agree with both of those sentiments. I think that the larger vehicles and the larger group moves first of all, there's absolutely market insulation when you're dealing with the top one to 2% of the travelers and a private, and the best corporate travelers, and having the diversified fleet that takes you from the sedan, SUV, all the way up to the motor coach and the ability to do high touch grouping meetings, the ability to execute on any ground move is the key, and that's your protection. If you are obsessed with the low price airport ride, or frankly, if you're obsessed with being the low cost motor coach provider, you're gonna lose. there is a commonality, and I, we never get into this, to have the data that we have. And, you know, shout out to my business partner who's an absolute genius of his generation. And we were talking this morning, I said, you know, client asked us about a piece of data and we had like 19, 20 data points that we could share with them. The commonality that I find for the most profitable businesses the businesses that are one, two, or three in their market, they're the most profitable and they're growing regardless of, you know, what life throws at them is they're all priced in the top one third in their categories. Now, I'm not saying that they're the lowest, priced on airports, but they recognize that when they buy a brand new motor coach. They can't be charging the same that a, that a, 25 year, old coach operator charges. They're, dealing with a premium client that likes the luxury experience, that wants the 24 hour operation that respects and appreciates the level of customer service that our industry delivers. And I do think that's where our opportunity lies. I think our shift is such that the motor coach industry, we're gonna blend together and the motor coach operators that are aging out okay, they've done well and they're aging out, I think that the chauffeur industry is gonna capture more of that market.

The Nice Brothers 59:48

Yeah. People are looking for that type of, uh, end-to-end experience, you know, when they're, when they're doing, uh, you know, any types of programs, whether it's, you know, social or whether it's corporate or, you know, any of those type of, you know, events.

Ken Lucci 1:00:02

high touch board meetings,

The Nice Brothers 1:00:04

they're all for a chauffeur experience, right. As opposed to a bus driver experience.

Ken Lucci 1:00:09

Correct, correct. And that all comes back to, this is circles back to where we started. It's the ability to always say yes, regardless of what the question is. It's the ability to go the extra mile on the service, take the luggage, greet them at the door of the motor coach, escort them to their seat. It's a leather seat. It's an absolutely beautiful interior. It's a beautiful experience all around. I think that's gonna carry the day, And I also believe that, you know, listen, there's a ton of aggregators on that side that are trying to offer low price, but the fleet operators have to stay in pat. I'm not putting my 500, $600,000 vehicle out for $99 an hour, 150, whatever it is, because you've low balled the client. So I agree. I think the opportunities look good. I think the challenges are such that you have to be on top of your customer service. We talked about creating the safe culture of safety. To me, those two things are not mutually exclusive. They go hand in hand. I don't think you get there unless you're making money, making a profit. You have to make a profit. when you went to that bank for 350,000 for all those vehicles, they didn't ask for your smile, they asked for your financial statements. And of course, I bet you brought your brother with you. Well, listen, this has been an exciting episode. we started with what defined the original business, which was always saying yes. Building a good team of people internally, maximizing the use of technology. God knows, I wish we had, a software IT guy sitting in every dispatch department and reservations department and building the ultimate software for us. We didn't get into a lot of subjects, but we'll have to have another episode of a, a thorn between two roses again in the future.

The Nice Brothers 1:01:56

A.

Ken Lucci 1:01:59

Absolutely. Listen, I want to do a, a special shout out to, uh, Doreen Rose, who you left out the best part of, of of working for flight time, which was you, you found the woman of your dreams.

The Nice Brothers 1:02:13

That's true. That is very true. And, uh, she will tell you that she was there first. She was, you know, she was there over over 20 years by the time we, uh, we stopped and she's still, uh, running the, uh, the billing department now at, Dolphin. So she's, uh, been an integral part of our, uh, our success and, you know, just as many, many others were. And, and, uh, you know, it's, imperative to have, you know, all those, you know, pieces of the puzzle in, place that, uh, are there to have your back. You know, especially when, uh, the business is, growing so much and to make sure that somebody's watching the money.

Ken Lucci 1:02:47

you know, when somebody said to me the other day, and we'll leave on this, is, you know, anybody can operate a business during the good times because a lot of money coming in covers a lot of sins. But at the end of the day when, when the proverbial shit hits the fan, you better have a good team of people and you better, have good processes in place. So I'm glad you guys, uh, as two brothers came together in the industry and I think the industry is blessed to have, uh, both Mike Rose from my limo. And, uh, Tim Rose from Dolphin Transportation and the Hoffman family of companies. guys, great to see you. I would, anybody who's listening to the podcast, search them out at the cha for Driven NLA show in Dallas. Quite frankly, they'll be the tallest guys walking down the, down the corridor, but, uh, they're, they're both very unique in their own ways they're a plethora of, of great useful information for new operators. And again, thank you guys for taking your time to be on the Ground Transportation Podcast.

The Nice Brothers 1:03:48

Ken. And next time please, you know, uh, we'd love to, uh, do it with James too, right? That's right. You know, so.

Ken Lucci 1:03:55

That was a little bit of a consternation on our end. We had a little bit of a scheduling problem, but absolutely 100%. And, uh, he's killing it out there with Pax. he's spending a lot of time on the bus side developing the defensive driving program. he has, and, uh, I'm glad that we gave him a shout out and I'll tell him you were asking for him.

The Nice Brothers 1:04:13

You got it.

1:04:15

Thank you for listening to the ground transportation podcast. If you enjoyed this episode, please remember to subscribe to the show on apple, Spotify, YouTube, or wherever you get your podcasts. For more information about PAX training and to contact James, go to PAX training.com. And for more information about driving transactions and to contact Ken, Go to driving transactions.com. We'll see you next time on the ground transportation podcast.