Fred Ferguson 0:00

when you have a good bus operation, you are feeding economic activity in retail and lodging and hospitality and recreation, in food and beverage. We all need each other. if I'm just a bus company and I don't have, a place to take people, I'm not gonna be as effective. And not every location is like Disney or Washington DC or New York City. There's a lot of destinations out in the country that are flyover or Passover. And so bus travel, group travel, they really are a core part of their business. DNA.

James Blain 0:59

Hello everybody and welcome back to another exciting episode of the Ground Transportation Podcast. Unfortunately, today I do not have my amazing, incredible co-host Ken Lucci. He is no doubt out there doing incredible financial work that we will have to find out about later. But who I do have today is a friend of mine, someone I'm very excited to have on the podcast, someone that I think is gonna shed a lot of light on what's going on at ABA, and all the incredible things they have. Coming down the pipeline, we have Fred Ferguson, the president of ABA. Fred, welcome to the podcast buddy.

Fred Ferguson 1:28

Hey, thanks for having me on.

James Blain 1:30

Hey, I am super excited. You have come into ABA. You have immediately started making things better. You know, you had some big shoes to fill. I love P Pan Tuo. He did incredible work and I gotta say, you have hit the ground running, but for a lot of people, I'd like to help them get to know you because I gotta tell you, Fred, for someone that is running such an incredible association, I feel like we haven't gotten the chance to really get to know you. So you tell us a little bit about your background and where you came from and how you got to ABAI. Incredible show.

Fred Ferguson 2:19

a lot of people know us for Marketplace. but it's a great organization. I've been here a year and a half. I did have the honor of. following Pete Pantuso who's been an incredible partner and mentor as I've taken the reins, he led this organization for 28 years. he's a giant and in some ways, it's humbling to take on the work that he led for so many years. as we're recording this, I just got back from a family trip to Utah. I've got two young kids and I grew up in Utah and I have a 92-year-old grandmother there. So having just spent some time with her and for my kids, it's their great-grandmother. It was amazing. Just an awesome time to reconnect and be with family. in terms of my background, I think being a dad is first and foremost the most important thing that I do. I know you're in the same

James Blain 3:11

same boat. Same boat?

Fred Ferguson 3:12

are the exact same ages. I also have a family business. My wife operates a retail and e-commerce business based here in Middleburg, Virginia. And so that's a huge part of our life as well. It's actually pretty cool. Our kids think that speaking to a computer is work. That's what they've always seen. But now that we have a store, they sweep. They stock the shelves. They take out the trash. They're learning the lessons you want them to learn about what real work is. So that's been really, really rewarding to be a part of the small business community. And I've learned a ton, in running a small business that's helped me with the organization such as ABA, you know, before ABA, I spent time as a corporate executive with a company called Vista Outdoor. Uh, it was a publicly traded outdoor products company that had 42 different outdoor brands in its portfolio. some of those were Overland Park based Bushnell, which is the optics brand that does scopes, binoculars, laser range finders. But we had camelback, we had bell helmets, camp Cheff, Sims, fishing, basically anything you would find at an REI. ABAs Pro we made at Vista. So that was a great company. I was the head of their government relations and communications, so virtually anything that touched the outside world, whether it was congress, investors, you know, different nonprofits. I was the guy, coordinating and running that portfolio. It was a great experience. Before that. I spent about eight and a half years working in Congress. I was a chief of staff to a member of Congress from the state of Utah, my home state. And you know, in that role I managed three different offices, one in D.C., two in Utah. my boss was the chairman of the oversight committee, which is the Chief Investigatory Committee of the House of Representatives. We had jurisdiction to investigate anything at any time. This committee got its start with Abraham Lincoln back in the 1850s when he was in the house. And it's always meant to protect, the taxpayer and, the, the treasury from waste, fraud and abuse. It was an amazing experience to lead that full

James Blain 5:28

How, how do you get there though? like that is, I gotta tell you, that's a huge deal. How does that happen? Like, how do you end up in that role?

Fred Ferguson 5:36

yeah, I mean, not to make light of it, but so much of life is timing and luck. And I think I've had extremely good timing and good luck in my career. but for me, honestly, it started with the game of baseball. I was ABAseball

James Blain 5:51

okay.

Fred Ferguson 5:51

player my entire life. I played in college baseball, Steven Strasberg, you know, the Hall of Fame pitcher. He and I were in the same conference and, and I did not have a good track record against him. That's why I'm here, and he's who he is. But after my senior year of college, I didn't know what the heck I wanted to do with my life. And my parents had actually met in Washington DC as interns. So I interned, I put my hat in the ring to intern. my brother is a Marine Corps pilot, and in my interview I was prepared to talk about national defense and this, that, and the other. And all they wanted to talk about was slow pitch softball. So they knew I was ABAseball guy, the congressman that ultimately hired me as an intern, he is the biggest baseball fan you will ever meet. And that was it. That was my foot in the door. And from there, it's, it's, again, you can have good timing, you can have good luck, but you, you gotta perform. and what I learned in DC is it's such a game of relationships, of authenticity. I think the news shows Washington DC as people hating each other, but I think in real life, Republican staff, democrat staff, we get along extremely well. I mean, some of my best friends are Democrats. I did work for Republican offices and, you know, in the day-to-day grind. We work together 95% of the time, it's just the 5% that elevates to the news, which is too bad. but DC was just an amazing experience. I had a lot of fun. And you know, again, I I was very fortunate that I was able to move from the guy answering phones to the guy answering mail. Then all of a sudden I had a legislative portfolio. Then all of a sudden I was leading the legislative teams. And then, the crescendo for me was becoming a chief of staff, where we had 85 people in our orbit, over $10 million in budget that I controlled. you know, it was, it was an unbelievable experience that at the time I just thought it was fun. but in reality I was learning incredible lessons that have prepared me for, you know, things like being a dad and small business and, and now running, you know, ABA, which ABA, collectively, we've got, we sit on about $15 million in assets. You know, we generate about $7 million in revenue per year. You know, that puts us kind of in the mid-size association, benchmarks. So we're not small, you know, we're not massive, but certainly since I've been here, we've got a pretty nice growth trajectory where, we're adding members, we're adding people to our shows, and it's just a really exciting time to be here.

James Blain 8:30

Well, and I think one of the big things for me, right, is that you have a unique organization. You know, you think of most of your trade associations when it comes to passenger ground transportation, and it is just purely operators, right? You got operators and then you got, some suppliers that are selling them things. ABA has got a really unique DNA and a really unique makeup, for those that aren't as familiar with ABA. Obviously we sponsor Fisk, we've been very involved. but for those that maybe haven't been involved in ABA or that new to the bus industry or new to coming to events in the bus industry, can you help us kind of understand what is it that makes the DNA of ABA unique? What makes the membership so different from other associations?

Fred Ferguson 10:22

Yeah, we are a multi membership organization, as the bus association bus operators. That's our heartbeat, that's our heart and soul, And within that segment we have the scheduled service bus operators, and then we have charter bus operators, each of whom have different business models. But the, the through line is the motor coach. you know, but what I think the strength of ABA is our breadth and our diversity. And, and what that means is ABA has attracted over its 100 year history. We are celebrating our 100 year, which is something like less than half a percent of all businesses ever get to this moment. But what ABA has done effectively is all of those stakeholders who benefit from a bus full of people

James Blain 11:10

Right.

Fred Ferguson 11:11

they join. Because they want to be part of the community. They want to have the relationships, they want to meet the bus operators. 'cause frankly, they know that if a bus full of people comes to their restaurant or their attraction or their destination, they're gonna make their numbers for the day. And, you know, so much so that we've actually funded an economic impact report of the bus and group travel industry. And there's a great graphic that I'll share with you that shows basically this flywheel effect that when you have a good bus operation, you are feeding economic activity in retail and lodging and hospitality and recreation, in food and beverage. And what that shows us and our members is we all need each other. if I'm just a bus company and I don't have, a place to take people, I'm not gonna be as effective. And similarly, if I'm a location. not every location is like Disney or Washington DC or New York City. There's a lot of destinations out in the country that are flyover or Passover. And so bus travel, group travel, they really are a core part of their business. DNA. And I think what's most rewarding about ABA is we connect all those dots. when you come to our show, ABA marketplace, we host over 70,000 individual business appointments over a four day period. And these appointments are being held by companies, some large, but mostly very, very small. And these businesses without marketplace. They have no ability to sell or attract regional or even national audiences. So when they come to our show, they're filling up an order book essentially for the next 12 months. So you get 12 months worth of sales calls that happened in four days. and what that means at our show, and you've been there, you're one of the loyal exhibitors for a lot of reasons. But people there, there's this common phrase that ABA is like family. And I think what that means is when you come to our show, there's two things that happen. One, people that come, come back. So you have people who have been there for decades because again, they get value from the show. So you have this kind of connection and personal relationship with people. But second, I think a lot of people make money when they come to ABA, so they're very happy. And that is just a really good recipe. and honestly, a lot of trade shows do not have that level of energy. Personal connection and happiness that you see at ABA. And that's really what makes it magical. 'cause we all need each other.

James Blain 13:57

I think to that point, marketplace for me and, and. You know, as viewers or listeners know, I'm on the road a lot. I'm always at local associations. I'm at, national Association, you name it, I am out there, I am constantly involved. And ABA marketplace is probably the most unique show that I attend. And to your point about it being like family, I can tell you, I am lucky enough that I got involved around COVID, Aaron DeSharm, who was with Women and Buses at the time. They were putting together this new group called The Driving Force. Fred, obviously, you know, tons about it. Because now we're a full blown council. But it was this, this idea that we were gonna help people, get resources for hiring, help them overcome the driver shortage, kind of build things out. And it kind of was born coming outta COVID. And I gotta tell you, I was really lucky in that I was the, literal kid on the group. You know, we had Mike McDonald, we had Brent Maitland, you had Aaron, you had, Pam from Dat Co. You had, Adam Hall. You had all of these people. That, like you said, they'd been going to ABA 10 plus years. They'd been involved forever. You know, all of these people that are kind of like these core tenants of the show of ABA and I was kind of the kid, right? I was the new guy. And I was super lucky in that everyone in that group immediately took me under their wing, Hey, what value can you provide? Hey, how can we do this? Hey, how can we do that? And everybody kind of found their lane and started working on it. And it was really great for me at this last marketplace when we were in Reno, because now that my kids are older, right? We mentioned family businesses. My wife has come in as our director of marketing. And so Aaron, who usually comes with me to the shows, wasn't able to make it. he had something come up and so that became my wife as marketing director. you're in the hot seat. It's time to go. And we had been at the show for maybe all of 10 minutes when, I'm setting up the booth and I get a text from Pam, Hey, I got your wife a found her, and then the next thing I know they're like, Hey, we're signing your wife for women in buses. They just immediately kind of grabbed her and ran off with her in the best way and was like, we have a new friend and kind of brought her into the fold. And so I think that's something that makes ABA so great is that there's a lot of information sharing. One thing I want you to talk about though is help us kind of understand the format, because we think of a traditional trade show where you've got a show floor from these hours and everybody goes to a session, they come back to the show floor. The show floor itself is completely different. It's separated out into different components and then kinda the way that ABA marketplace runs is different. for those that aren't familiar with it, can you kind of help us understand how it ticks and how it's broken out? You talked about the sessions, and the appointments, but I wanna make sure that people can understand how that breaks out and what makes it different.

Fred Ferguson 16:36

So the headline description for Marketplace is we are the domestic travel sales show. So if you are in ground transportation, and predominantly our membership is motor coach based, but anybody frankly who runs a transportation company, you know there's a place for you at Marketplace. and the reason I say that is all of the destinations, the restaurants, the attractions, the dmo, they're coming to recruit transportation companies, bus operators, tour operators. They want them again, to bring their passengers, to bring their tours, to bring their trips to their location. So the show floor is, a massive floor and it's essentially divided up into, we have appointment desks and then we have exhibitors. The exhibitors is kind of a traditional show floor where you've got, PAX training is displaying, your product and your value. But we also have the destination. So visit Branson, great place in Missouri. They've got ice cream booth and

James Blain 17:48

year.

Fred Ferguson 17:49

stands, and it's all about come to Branson. You know, the Wisconsin team brings the cheese, you know, Kentucky brings the bourbon. It's a very cool show experience. And then we've got buses and the equipment as well. but the show really is about, you know, how do I build travel and sales into my transportation business? And so the appointments, you know, it's this multiple football fields of desks. And at any given time, there's a transportation and tour provider meeting with one of these suppliers, the destinations and attractions, et cetera. And they're just exchanging, leads and needs and, our software connects you with kind of the flavor of business you want to meet with. So your appointments aren't random. You get to choose and kind of tailor the appointment to fit your needs. but it really is, special because all of that economic activity is happening throughout the entire four day show. another way to think about ABA, it's really through the four things that we do, the four kind of core pillars of how we operate and it's advocacy and lobbying, its operations and safety, its workforce and culture and its marketplace. So marketplace really is one of four things that we do. Marketplace is all about business development, but at the marketplace show, and honestly at ABA 12 months out of the year, we're advancing our lobbying and advocacy agenda. ground transportation is heavily regulated, and if we don't have a voice in Washington, there's an expression that if you're not at the table, you're on the menu. So we have to be organized to represent ourselves. And so our show, and again, ABA throughout the year is all about lobbying and harnessing the collective voice of our industry for good. Second is safety. And this gets into your world. You know, you sit on the bus industry safety council executive committee, you know, this is the preeminent gathering of bus safety and bus maintenance professionals. And we hold seminars, trainings, workshops, not only at our marketplace, but throughout the year as well. And one thing that I'm excited about is we're gonna be rolling out certifications so that individuals who participate in the content and go through these sessions. there's a credential on the other end for you, and that's gonna help individual personal development. It's gonna help companies market themselves better when they've got, you know, more certified mechanics or safety professionals. And we think it's, it's gonna be a real value add. But then workforce, no business operates without good people. And you talked about driving force, which was a working group that we have formalized into a standalone council. The driving force council, which you're also on the executive committee,

James Blain 20:43

I'm a glutton for punishment, Fred.

Fred Ferguson 20:43

But it goes hand in hand. you need great people and you need to train them well, and it's all interconnected. and then again, the fourth plank is marketplace. And so to me, if you want to work in our industry, you need a strategy for every one of those planks, regulatory, safety, workforce, and sales. We try and really bring that all together, not only at our show, but throughout membership throughout the year. And so it's a tremendous opportunity. I'll give you a few statistics. at Marketplace, you know, again, it's a travel show. That's how people view us. We have 724 operators that attend the show. So it's not just the travel and destination community that's there. We have a huge operator base that attends. Now we also have over 1500 plus sales travel destination representatives, but collectively we have between 25 and 3000 people. And when you have that many people in a room, there's just so much networking and leads and discussions and it, it really is a magical place.

James Blain 21:54

I think for me, the very first ABA that I went to was when Pete Pantuso was still with ABA. And I remember for us it was really easy because it was an Omaha. now I gotta tell you, the one thing that gets me about ABA is I don't know why it's typically cold. So we have good jackets. it's just kind of a fun thing that we always joke about. But we drove up to Omaha and of course it's like the one time it's like coming down snow. And I remember being at that show. And I didn't really know anyone. It was the first time having a booth or first time, you know, we just entered the motor coach industry and our timing was impeccable. Fred, I am the king of timing. We moved into the motor coach industry in January, 2020 is when we started working with Motor Coach. Yeah, we all know what happens in March. but it was really great because, you know, a couple things I mentioned, you know, they made friends with my wife and now she's gonna be in women in busing. I had a very similar experience I was coming in, I was green, probably on the first night, I remember Aaron Sharm, who is now, running the driving force. the guys from MCI, so it was Aaron, I think it was Brent. It was Lynn, a bunch of people. we all ended up at this taco place. And very quickly obviously now we're all partners running this full council, when really all we were trying to do was help out. It's one of those things where I think what makes ABA so special is these little ideas, these little sparks of trying to help each other, trying to build, out into full blown becoming their own things that help people. One of my favorite parts is, you know, even though we don't do anything on the maintenance side. I love that the bus industry safety council backs right up against bus mark. I'm very lucky and that I get to call Jeff Shanker Sal and Mike McDonald, friends. Between the three of them, there's enough experience to pretty much learn anything you could ever want, right? And so for me, the great thing there is that, you know, you get to go through all of the safety and then I get to go be a kid again. Because one of the best parts about Bus Mark that I haven't seen anywhere else in the industry is we go on field trips, right? We literally turn into kids for the day, we pile onto a bus and we go to someone's operation and they invite us in, and we get to do a site visit and they'll tour you through their facility. They'll share what they're doing. They'll share what's worked, they'll share what hasn't. And so there's this amazing wealth of knowledge. And I've gotta tell you, I'm extremely excited as someone in training, as someone that does certifications about the fact that we're now. As ABA going to be able to certify. Because if you've ever wanted to know about compliance, if you've ever wanted to know, Hey, how do I manage these DQ files? What needs to be in it? What do I do with this? What happens when I get audited? All of these things are kind of the core of bis. You know, I had in Florida a new safety manager and their owners had reached out to me and said, Hey, I own this company. I've brought in our son-in-law to do safety. is there anything you do to help him? And I said, sure. Buy him a plane ticket. We're going to the BISC summer meeting. He's coming with me. And it was great 'cause we got him introduced, we got him in the mentor program, got 'em up to speed and the ability to do that, the resources, what's there is just huge. And I know that one of the big things for me about ABA was when I got there the first time at Marketplace, I was overwhelmed. And so there's just so much knowledge, so much there. Let me ask you, as someone who is building this incredible vision of where we're going and what we're doing with it, what do you recommend for operators for, their safety staff, their maintenance staff? For people that are trying to figure out what part of the pool do I dip my toe in? Or do you just recommend they dive in head first? What's the best way for people to start engaging with ABA to get to know what you're doing, to join in and be part of that?

Fred Ferguson 26:46

Yeah, I think, like any organization, your power is in your people. So it's all about getting to know the ABA team and through you and obviously through me today. I want anyone and everyone to know that we've got an open inbox, open door, open phone call, whatever you wanna call it to get in touch with us, and I'm sure we can add my email address. to the recording. But I would love for people to reach out to me directly. I'm a big believer in social media and LinkedIn, connect on there, it's such an easy way to keep up with people and to, communicate. but honestly, we're all people behind the screens or, behind the name. So it's like, just reach out to us, talk to us, you know, our website. within about, well, I don't know when this is being published, but we may have a new website when this recording goes live and that the website will just be easier to consume information to, to get in touch with us. I'm excited. We're bringing on a new team member. we actually have hired a director of safety and certifications. We've never had that position before. And we were able to, recruit a gal who spent 20 years at the Department of Transportation, 15 of which was spent in the rule making division of F-M-C-S-A. she is wicked smart. Our general counsel has basically locked horns with her in the past, in a good way as general counsels do with an agency. But there's a lot of respect that he has for her. She's spoken at Marketplace, she's come to talk about the charter rule and the drug and alcohol program. So to have a talent like that join us to help us create better programming, better training, better in-person experiences, she's gonna be a huge asset and I cannot wait for everyone to get to know Crystal. we're probably a few weeks away from her officially joining us at ABA.

James Blain 28:32

I couldn't be more excited about Crystal either. and to the comment you've made with locking horns with the general counsel, I am one of those people that believes that steel sharpened steel, right. What I loved so much about when I joined Driving Force, have I always agreed with every single person on there? No, I'm sure there were times where they were just like, oh God, James, you know? But that's okay, because I know that when I need help, I've got someone I can call when they need help, they know that they've got someone they can call. And having people like that, that are constantly going to help keep your edge sharp, that are gonna help keep you in the know, they're gonna help keep you honest. I talk to these people on a regular basis. they're friends, right? When we go to shows, we're often, out to dinner or we're hanging out. So I think it's really important that those types of people are joining the organization and it's the types of people that we're bringing in that I think are gonna make a huge difference. Now to that point, you have made a lot of changes in the council. You've got this incredible vision. Help us understand a little bit. What is kind of your vision for the councils? you've talked about a new website, I know we've done some new logos. What is kind of the vision and then do you have maybe a 32nd elevator pitch on where we're going? Help us kinda see that bright.off the distance you're taking us to.

Fred Ferguson 29:52

We have to be world class at advocacy, safety, workforce, and marketplace. We as an organization, need to provide products and services within each of those four buckets so that we can be world class in everything that we offer. we have eight different professional councils, is what we call them, and we've talked about a lot of them. The bus industry Safety Council, the bus Maintenance and Repair Council, the Driving Force Council, women and buses, the African American Council, the Entertainer Council, the Hispanic Council, the next era, leadership Council. All of these have a role to play in giving people a place at ABA where they feel comfortable, where they feel that they have a community that they can call their own. Now, someone like you, you're, you're probably a part of every single council.

James Blain 30:43

I make my appearances

Fred Ferguson 30:44

you're in leadership in at least two of them. But that's kind of what they're meant to do, is it's a menu of options to get engaged. And the African American council may have a certain content focus that the next era leadership council may be different, but, but the vision is how do you take these councils and activate them? You know, I think originally the councils were a forum for people who thought alike or looked alike to get together, which is good. There's a place for that, don't get me wrong. But I also want to go to these councils and basically put the pressure on you to say, what are you gonna do to help ABA? we have these four core pillars that we have to be kick asset. How are you guys gonna help get us there? And a good example is we went to the African American Council and kind of gave them that proposition and they said, Hey, let's go to dc. Let's go lobby. So we said, okay. So we did the African American Council fly in and it coincided with the Congressional Black Caucus. They have an annual

James Blain 31:48

Oh wow.

Fred Ferguson 31:49

dc it's an amazing gathering of leaders from the black community and it brings in icons from pop culture like Usher, you know, will come and they'll bring in athletes, but then members of Congress and their staff, and it's all about, advancing the ideals and, and policy priorities of that community. ABA has never had a foot in the door there, but now we do. We brought our council and we integrated with the Congressional Black Caucus. I would argue ABA is stronger today because we have a new cohort in Congress that's influential. There's over a hundred members of the Congressional Black Caucus and we now have an authentic inroad with that group. The next group we're bringing is the next ERA Leadership Council. They're doing a fly in, in Washington DC in March. I think a lot of people think of the bus industry, and I don't mean this in ABAd way, but they're gonna think of the bus industry as old, stodgy, tired. And when you bring in the next ERA council, which it's an incredibly talented group of leaders, many of whom are second and third generation leaders of their family business, they're gonna have a way different view of the bus industry because this group is enthusiastic, strategic, you know, business-minded and, the net result ABA is better at lobbying 'cause we have more people helping us. And I think a B'S brand on Capitol Hill is stronger because they're seeing the full diversity of our industry. And I think for ABA members, I hope they're getting more value outta their membership because we're creating these opportunities. To advance not only industry priorities, but coming to DC is a tremendous brand opportunity for your company. You know, you come to DC and, I'll write it for you. You've got a couple of press releases, you've got social media posts, you've got employee newsletters that you can write, annual report fodder. Like there's a ton you can do with it and like, let us help you, help yourself with your stakeholders and your communications because people care about this stuff. so yeah, that's the goal. I want our councils to be a gathering point, but then I want it to be a forum for action and that we put you to work to bring to life the goals and objectives of our four core pillars.

James Blain 34:06

Well, and I want to really tie down on what you're saying about DC because you know, I have been to dc I have gone and I took government class in school, right? And I was an AP history kid. Absolute nerd. But what you think happens there and how you think it works is not necessarily what you see when you get there. And it was really interesting to me because when I was there, I got to go back to back with two different associations. at first we were there with the NLA supporting and then, because we also work across all the pastor ground transportation, literally day after was TTA. And so we got to go with the NLA and pitch and talk to all of your different representatives and then the very next day do it with TTA. And one of the things that I found, and it's very funny 'cause you, you alluded to this earlier. One, I was shocked that our government is ran by what I look at as my kids, right? I have a 20-year-old stepdaughter. by the time this comes out, she'll be 21. God help me. but, you know, she's working in the business now. And so I look at my stepdaughter and I looked at the kids that were in these offices and that we're in these lunch rooms. And it's funny because when lunchtime came around, we went into the respective basements and we just had lunch with everybody there. And you could tell, like you had all of these friends working for all the different representatives on opposite sides. And so the moment for me of, wow, if you really wanna get something done, you just gotta find the kid who is dating the girl that works in the other office. or the other way around. Because you see them all hanging out together and they're the ones that are doing a lot of that legwork. You mentioned being a chief of staff, you've got this one person that sits at the top of that. But you don't realize that even though the news coverage is all about that one representative, that there's all these people that are making it happen, and we met some people that were just for their age. The maturity and things there were incredible. Now, one of the things for me with that is you mentioned as a business one, I think that we have to represent ourselves. You and I have talked about this at length. One of my biggest pain points in the industry is how we're portrayed. I think of how the media thinks of a motor coach driver. One, they don't think of it as a motor coach. They think of it as a bus. And we all know you're kind of this fat, lazy guy behind the wheel. And that kills me because I know that's not who we are. I see the same thing happen in other industries. I was watching the movie sing with my kids, and, they gotta get to the other side of Vegas. and what's the chauffeur is a pig, right? He's a literal, overweight pig. And he's got the typical aviator glasses and the hat and I'm like, yeah, One, they don't do stretch limos anymore, right? Two, it doesn't fit. But they're kind of having the same problem that you have on the motor coach side. And I think it's happened in taxi, I think it's happened in all of passenger transportation, where the way the drivers are viewed has been skewed and portrayed by Hollywood. And for me, that's a pain point because as someone that spends a lot of time on hiring and developing and training, we, I think we lose a lot of really great people that would be coming into our industry because they don't know what our industry is. Now that said, I think one of the great things about the councils is you mentioned the councils are, you know, they're active, they're involved. We're going to dc we're doing all these things. You know, I know that as a member of driving force, we have a literal guide that we've built to give you resources and tools. you know, I, I was lucky enough I got to present for BISC this year in Reno, talking about the passenger's perception of us in safety versus how we see ourselves. Help us understand, Fred, because I think if you haven't been involved with ABA, I don't know that there's any other associations that have true councils, and we've kind of talked about these councils. if you're a listener and you're, you've never seen an ABA council, you understand kind of what the structure is and how that works. Can you kind of help us understand, obviously we've got these core councils. How does a council work? How is it led? how do you get involved in that? what does it look like? If you had to explain to someone what a council at ABA is, how would you kind of enlighten them?

Fred Ferguson 38:19

Yeah, I think it's a collection of, like-minded people. Unified around a certain topic. So women in buses, I think it's very easy to understand what is women buses all about. Well, it's a gathering point for women in our industry who for many, many years, and you've alluded to this, have felt underrepresented and underappreciated. And this group now, I mean, it's an absolute force of nature. There's over 400 people in, women in buses. They hold essentially an all day conference at Marketplace. they meet on a monthly basis for two reasons. They do regular education seminars to advance professional development, and then second, you know, they do lunch and learns where they like, literally on Zoom. And this all started during COVID. They'll get together and lunch together, talk and catch up and network. and then when there's different shows and events on the road, they get together. You know, so they will have a women in buses meetup to bring people together in person. many of the other councils follow a similar model. Women in buses in many ways is like the preeminent structure for a council. You know, the African American Council, the Hispanic Council, you know, they're convening the same, type of like-minded person to learn and to network and to, to get to know one another. You know, BISC, the Bus Industry Safety Council and the Maintenance Repair Council. It's a bit more technical, it's really teaching focused. And I think as we roll out a certification program that will be the primary hub and delivery model for giving the education and giving the training and figuring out how do we test and confirm that you've grasped the content. but in each of these councils, our goal is to have a mix of in-person opportunities. you mentioned BISC has a summer meeting, they also meet at Marketplace, but also, virtual, which is not always ideal, but again, for the lives we all live, it's actually a useful tool

James Blain 40:21

Oh, it's great.

Fred Ferguson 40:22

webinars and, you know, networking opportunities that it at least gives you a chance to stay connected. So they're incredible. I think, you know, you touched on Washington DC and some of the different lobbying initiatives you were involved in. I think the council structure speaks to this, but our industry relatively speaking, is not as big as the defense industry or healthcare,

James Blain 40:49

even trucking.

Fred Ferguson 40:51

or tech trucking. There's 450,000 trucks sold per year in the US there's about 2000 buses sold per year in the us. So, relatively speaking, like we are not. Very big. That being said, we are positioning ourselves more effectively than we ever have before. collectively, we generate $158 billion in economic activity. That translates to 800,000 jobs, $50 billion in wages, and $27 billion in taxes paid. You know, that's giving us a platform now to, maybe we don't make as many trucks as they do, but we're still putting a lot of money in people's pockets, and we should be proud of that and be taken serious because of it. But I think also the opportunity, in the same way we want our councils to be coordinated and connected. You're a great example. You're a driving force. You're at BISC. You know your wife is at Women in buses. We want there to be coordination and cohesion. The same is true for other associations. You know, the United Motor Coach Association is a sister association to ABA and they do amazing work. they have bus and Motor Coach news, which is an online news center for the industry. They have bus rates.com, which is a great lead generator for bus companies. the bus expo, it's their annual show that is really, really dialed in on bus equipment, suppliers, tires, seating the buses themselves. It's a great show. They do great work. When we come to DC the more we can coordinate our message, the better. 'cause we're all representing at the end of the day, the same constituencies. NLA, they do amazing work. The insurance study that they put out in 2025. Awesome. That is a world class study. And I'll be honest, and I don't know if this is breaking news, we have hired the same firm that NLA hired to do a study for the motor coach industry. Which is awesome. I mean, what do they say? imitation is the finest form of flattery. Like we want to draw the same type of data and policy conclusions that NLA produced when we do that. and we can, maybe you and I need to start ground transportation week in DC Let's bring us all together.

James Blain 43:05

I will tell you right now, and, and I, I, this is kind of a soapbox for me because, the vision for us at PAX is I wanna support all of passenger ground transportation. my partner came up with a name for the company, I came in after the name was established, he hadn't gone public yet. But I fell in love with the name because there's this beautiful duality in the name Pax training, because PAX means peace and Latin. Our motto is Anime Pacum, which is peace of mind. But Pax is a passenger, right? You got an airplane. How many PAX are on here? They know exactly what you're talking about. You got on a bus, how many pax does this thing hold? I got a 20 pack. Like it's just terminology for passenger. And it's funny because I've been approached a lot of times to say, Hey, when are you gonna do trucking? When are you gonna move to trucking? And honestly, my answer is always when the passenger ground transportation industry doesn't need me anymore. And that's kind of my way of saying that. I think there's so much work to do here. I don't know that I'll ever get to another part of the industry and I've fallen in love with it. But to the point that you've made, I think one of the things that kills me is if we are going as the motor coach industry, as you know, so we've got the motor coach industry going. We've got our emergency medical going, you've got taxi going, you've got limo going. We are all feeling a lot of similar pain. For example, Insurance is the common thread between all of passenger ground transportation right now that in many cases is quite literally strangling companies. There are companies that are at a point where either due to a series of accidents or sometimes even by no fault of their own, have seen their rates increase, are in a position now where they may not be able to continue operating Because of that, and we've seen the cost of each claim is rising. Now, we've had a lot of insurance experts on here. I don't want to go deep into it. But what I see is this opportunity because if each industry comes in and they go in and they give the exact same message, I think to something my wife loves to say, she says it takes seven touches in marketing, right? She's a marketing major, it's seven touches on a message. And I can tell you at PAX, we see it all the time. They come to our booth, they engage in our website, they might be a podcast listener. but you know, we have these different touches and I think. What we forget is that when we are going to dc, when we are doing these types of things, we are selling that. And one of the things that I wanna compliment you and ABA on is that I have seen the councils go outside of ABA. So for example, with BISC, we coordinate with California Bus Association and we do BISC West. There's BISC East, right? We were in Minnesota. there's all of these local associations where you're seeing coordination. And I think one of the big important things that tries, and I see every association try drives home, is you've gotta have similar coordination when it comes to your representatives in government. You mentioned Bushnell and Overland Park. That just happens to be my backyard We all have these six degrees of separation. If I go see Jerry Moran, because I'm in Kansas, I go see Moran. His office is down the street. If I just go see him once and I talk to one of the interns of the office and I never follow up. I never figure out what events are there. I never look at what I can do locally. I'm missing an opportunity because to the point you made when we were talking about the Black Caucus, we're not a big industry, but we represent a absolutely crucial facet. If every bus went off the road tomorrow, the world would grind to a halt.

Fred Ferguson 46:36

Yeah, you're absolutely right. the other thing that I think we have the opportunity. Our industry has done these kind of targeted fly-ins over the years where we bring in one group, and I just think having been a congressional staffer, the reason healthcare, defense, tech, oil, gas, the reason they are who they are, it's repetition, they show up. And so I think what we're trying to do at ABA is we want to support, you know, the UMA that I mentioned, they do an incredible fly in each year for the motor coach industry. Like we wanna support that. We wanna be there for that. other tourism organizations, we wanna support their fly-ins. and we as ABA, we want to now put our own on the table and these micro fly-ins that we're doing with the African American Council with the next era when women and buses comes to town, when BISC comes to town, I think what we're doing is we're filling the cup and we're hitting more offices more repeatedly. And when you put all that together, we're all having a much bigger impact. And it's not about competing with one another, it's about coordinating, blanketing the field, it's press coverage. And when we do all those things, again, we are such a stronger industry, so I just cannot overemphasize how important collaboration, coordination, I think you've probably see this in the marketplace, but vertical integration is happening. All day long. if you go to any Motor Coach company website, not any, but most, you're gonna see on their website, what do you need? You need a black car, you need a sprinter van, you need a mini bus, you need executive coach. and I think ABA, and I don't know if this is breaking news, but more than half of our membership, they register many buses as part of their FMCSA fleets. we as ABA, we've never talked about many buses, but half of our members are operating them. So we're gonna include that now in our membership value proposition. Because what you're doing at driving force and what you're doing at BISC, it speaks to the same constituencies of whether you're a motor coach company or if you operate many buses. in most cases, you're doing both because operators want to be able to facilitate any itinerary at any time. And so we, as an association, we gotta keep up with that trend. So I think another opportunity is how do we take. That vertical integration that's happening in the marketplace and use our existing pillars, advocacy, safety, operations, and sales to support, all levels of ground transportation. I think that's the opportunity. And if, if we do that well and we bring all of us together, you know, again, our voice is stronger, we're creating more opportunities for selling, for safety, for better workforce and culture development. And I love that you keep talking about the consumer, the passenger. At the end of the day, we can't lose sight. That's who pays the bills. And if we're a better industry for the consumer, we're all gonna do a whole lot better long term.

James Blain 49:34

I think, there's something that really has kind of come to light for me. There's a couple big things. The first is, we are in the era of mixed fleet. We're in an era where it's no longer I'm in this silo, I'm in that silo. It's, I'm operating in multiple silos where you came in from. Is what I think separates a lot of the mindset. But at the end of the day, we're seeing the rise of mixed fleet, and we were seeing that before COVID. I think we've just resumed it. I think the other thing, and the reason I keep coming back to the passenger you know, I've been in San Francisco, I've been in Phoenix, I've been in all these places where you see, you know Vegas, you got Waymo, you got Zoox. We've covered autonomous Ad Litem. And I think one of the things that for me, you know, I, I, I, we were talking with someone about it and they said, well, you know, we gotta get 'em to slow down. We gotta worry about safety. We gotta do this, we gotta go do that. and what immediately occurred to me is they were talking about fighting the rising tide. We're gonna fight progress. And the problem is progress wins. Right? if you were a manufacturer of rotary dial phones and you said, you know, these whole cell phone things, carrying it in your pocket, it's a horrible idea. We're gonna, rally and fight against that. We all know what happened to you, right? The manufacturers of rotary phones evolved or died. That was kinda the thing. And I, don't know that that's the point that we're at, but I will tell you what you see in really great businesses is they lean into their strengths. And the reason I keep coming back to the passenger is one of the big things for me is even in a fully autonomous future, right? You go full Blade Runner with this thing as far as you can go, cars drive themselves, buses drive themselves, everything drives itself. You're gonna see the same thing that we're watching happen in our kids with social media. There will be a starvation for human connection. And I can tell you the big thing, and I've spoken about this to chauffeurs, I've spoken about this to motor coach operators and drivers. my big thing is if we lean into what do we do for the passenger in terms of service and experience, and what can we provide and how can we be the best possible thing? That's, what sets these operations apart. That's, what is the difference, right? I will share with you, I was on Southwest flight recently and I was talking to one of the flight attendants about all the changes and whether or not the airline was losing its soul. and I kinda shared, I said, I've been flying with this airline for 10 years and the one thing that scares me the most is, what's gonna happen with you guys the way you operate the people? And I kid you not getting off that flight. You know, it was a very short conversation that flight attendant hugged me, right? An autonomous car hugs me, I die. yeah, you don't wanna hug from an autonomous car or an autonomous point, but my point here being that I think. In all of the logistics, you can kind of lose sight. Now, that said, tying this back into where we were, when we go to Washington, when we go to these places, it's the same thing. Being in that office is not the same as sending a letter. Now, if you operate motor coaches or school buses or you know, a limo fleet or a taxi fleet, you're gonna have different unique items in each of those segments that matter. But if the core message there is aligned across all of those, and all of these people coming in are saying, Hey, we have an insurance crisis. This is a unified plan from the pasture ground transportation industry. We want you to look at it. What happens a month later? Hey, I'm from the NLA, I want you to look at this unified plan. Hey, I'm from the TTA, Hey, we're here with IMG. Hey, we're here with whoever. You know, all of these different groups, networks, and associations. If we're all able to come in, even if we have our own unique ones. Like you were saying, that repetition is going to get us there. So let me ask you then, what in your mind does that look like? How do we, and obviously I've volunteered. I'm gonna tell you like I have on the podcast with, with everyone else. I volunteers tribute to help grease those wheels between the associations. I'm lucky enough, I get to work between all of them, so please lean on me for that because I'd be happy to coordinate. But how do we make that happen so we can start pushing this forward? And how does that kind of start? what does it look like when we're finally able to turn that tide? How do we know it's working?

Fred Ferguson 53:55

Yeah, I mean, I go back to my very first marketplace. It was in Philadelphia in 2025. and the day of my opening speech, which is basically my coming out party to the entire industry, was the day that Donald Trump levied tariffs on Canada imports. And, and this was like a week into his presidency. And, you know, obviously the floor was buzzing. and so the very first thing that I did is. We pulled together the head of the Canadian Motor Coach Association and the United Motor Coach Association, and the three of us said, Hey look, this is a problem. I don't exactly know how we're gonna fix it, but at a minimum we gotta show United Front. So those two guys came up on stage with me. So at my very first opportunity to meet the whole ABA community, you know, I shared the stage with these two association leaders and it was the message that needed to be sent. And fast forward to today, trucks have a 25% tariff. Buses have 10%. It's not good. I'd much rather have

James Blain 54:53

Well, explain why that matters, right? For anybody that's not a bus operator and they're here like Canada, that's not my problem. Explain why that matters. 'cause if you don't understand the motor coach supply line, you might not understand why that's such a big deal.

Fred Ferguson 55:05

So 65% of all motor coaches on the road are made in Canada. The rest are made in Europe. Europe sells about. Nine times as many motor coaches as the US does. So the critical mass is much bigger in Europe for busing. So that's why there's a lot of the supply chain is based there. one of the Canadian companies, they're 101 years old. So in, in some ways, the market has dictated where they're based. You know, they're a Canadian company, they've won in the marketplace, and that's just where they're based, where they're located. In the US, manufacturers, they've been out of the motor coach business since the eighties. It just wasn't attractive to them. I gave you the statistics. It's 2000 sales per year

James Blain 55:47

Yeah. GM used to make them and GM got outta the business.

Fred Ferguson 55:50

They got outta the business and that was market forces that did that. So, just the volume really doesn't exist. So our messaging to the government is, look, hey, there should be no tariff. We have no other option. there's not a big enough supply chain yet. We are essential. We move the military, we move natural disaster aid, but most industries have gotten dinged with tariffs. We are not immune from it, but we're 15 percentage points better than the other regulated commercial vehicle, which is trucks. So again, you can't call it a win because 10% is not good, but it's a lot less bad. And that's because of the lobbying that we did.

James Blain 56:26

Well, I am a big believer in little wins, right? one of my favorite things, and I talk about my father-in-law in his business on here all the time, because my father-in-law gets driven nuts because he's successfully as a business and everybody goes, oh, Ralph, you're an overnight success. And his favorite thing is, and he's very animated. What are you talking about? What do you mean overnight success? I've been doing this for 30 years. I was grinding in my basement, like literally working in my basement. Right? Like I got divorced in the middle of, I mean, but he's right. And I think that, to me, I see that as a little win because it's not 25. We were able to do that. And I think what happens, and I tell this to operators, I tell to anyone, they'll listen. The way that you get the big win is. Each little win. You have to compound and you have to build. And so I think that's something that, could it be better? Oh God, yes. But it's a lot better than what it could have been if we were at that 25.

Fred Ferguson 57:20

In the same proclamation that we got hit with 10% tariffs. President Trump, the president of the United States proclaimed, declared that buses are an essential part of our transportation infrastructure. And he enumerated why we move military. We are there when natural disasters hit. we are providing essential services across the economy. and I think the power of that comes when the next COVID hits or the next crisis hits. when COVID happened, the bus industry had no message. They were not coordinated, and we were a complete and total afterthought. If COVID happens tomorrow, the first thing I'm doing, I'm taking that presidential proclamation and I'm saying, look, we're essential.

James Blain 58:08

Yeah.

Fred Ferguson 58:09

you've already identified that, so. Let's work together now to protect this essential industry. So again, we got a lot of work to do. 'cause 10% is not good, especially with rising insurance costs and, and all that. But you have to be able to pause and say, that's $130 million difference. The difference between 10% and 25%, 130 million bucks. And that is not flowing through to our operators. And again, zero is better, but that's less bad.

James Blain 58:40

Well, I think that goes back to us saying a second ago, right? You pat yourself on the back and you go right back at it. And I think that that moment of not, you know, yeah, we're not having a giant party, but that pat on the back, okay, let's go see how we can do better. I think is one of the driving things that is gonna make things work in terms of getting this all done.

Fred Ferguson 58:58

You talked about how do we keep the momentum, the coordination up? And I've been here 18 months, I feel like my legs are getting under me now. I keep doing stuff that makes me feel like I'm changing things around, but with my legs under me, I think we have the opportunity now to do more with UMA to do more with NLA, to do more with the National Tour Association, to do more with US travel, so as ABA has gotten our house in order now, I think is the time to expand partnerships, to work more closely together. So to the extent you can help open doors and create warm introductions let's bring it to life together. I have no doubt we all will be better off, when we bring that kind of coordinated future to life.

James Blain 59:41

No, absolutely. and I gotta say for me, anything I can do there, I'm a very firm believer in a rising tide is going to raise all boats. I was on the show floor at UMA and I ran into Glen, who is the president of Banning, and I happen to sit on the CTANJ, right, which is a show for Transportation Association of New Jersey and Mike Rose, who is a friend and a customer of ours. He does an absolutely incredible job there. Glen does an absolutely incredible job with Manny, and I immediately said, I need to make sure there's a connection here. I need to make sure these two are coordinating because what happens in New York affects New Jersey, They're very interconnected out there on the East coast. And so I immediately said, Hey, Glen, let me get your information. Mike's not here. I wanna introduce you. And I can tell you those types of connections, those types of working together and coordinating are what's gonna make a huge difference. Because just like we're talking about at the national level, having people coordinating in dc, guess what? You've gotta coordinate locally, within your own state, within your own region. So I am happy to do anything I can to be a conduit and to help make that happen.

Fred Ferguson 1:00:50

So for about a year, Glenn Evry and I have been on a Thursday afternoon call talking about idling in New York City, which is a, I mean, we could spend another hour.

James Blain 1:01:00

Yeah. That'll be a whole nother episode,

Fred Ferguson 1:01:02

but we, uh, we just sent a letter to the US Secretary of Transportation, Sean Duffy, laying out the problems and some proposed solutions that we think DOT should get involved in. I'm gonna be with the secretary in about 11 days as part of his Great American road trip. this is a huge problem and we don't have enough time. But Glenn has been an amazing partner as the head of the UMA legislative committee as the head of Banney and just as a sharp operator. So I'm all for it. and it's a great story. And reminder that again, the rising tide, as you said, lifts all boats.

James Blain 1:01:38

Agreed. So as we close this out, I think we could keep going for another two or three hours. I definitely will have to have you back on, especially because I honestly believe that if we cannot get the entire industry to start coordinating, we are going to start seeing the fragmentation hurting us. We've got to start working together and I just love having someone like-minded that I can have on to do that. what if there was one message that you had to leave us with, or one piece that you wanted our listeners to be able to take away as we close this out, what would that be?

Fred Ferguson 1:02:14

I think, there's a home for you at ABA whether it's operator travel, sales, maintenance, safety or CEO leaders, there's a place for you here. And I think that comes through in our educational content, in our councils, our in-person events, the BISC summer meeting, our fly-ins marketplace. I just really thank people for joining as a small business owner myself. It's not easy to give your dollars to associations and say, Hey, I want a good investment. I want a good return. But I think we're building something that can show you that it's worth it and that you can get a return from that investment. Because again, there's strength in numbers and so we need you.

James Blain 1:02:58

I will follow that up by saying, if you do join, come and find me. as Fred has already alluded to, I'm very happily involved in my councils. I will very happily introduce you to the ABA side of things, get you oriented, and I will share. I just wanna put this last thing, Shout out to Stephanie with her Broadway shows, because I don't know of any other show where I get a Broadway show at lunch. Fred, we might have to put you on the spot. I think what we might have to do is put a clip in here because at this last ABA marketplace, you got on stage, we actually got you involved in the Broadway shows. And I gotta say, man, you're built for show business. You absolutely killed it. So we will drop that in at the end.

Fred Ferguson 1:03:35

it was, an opportunity of a lifetime to be part of the Broadway musical experience. I had a lot of fun and I got to meet, Glenda from Wicked. That was incredible. My daughter thinks that was the coolest thing ever.

James Blain 1:03:47

I will say it is probably my favorite part of ABA and that's kind of my guilty pleasure there, right? there's no educational value for me other than I just get to see what talent looks like, the people they bring out, just the absolute pure stage craft. I gotta tell you, masquerade this year where we had the Phantom of the Opera, just coming in outta nowhere, making his way up to the stage was incredible. So for anybody that hasn't been to ABA marketplace, you should go to ABA te marketplace. You can join ABA. Fred. I can't thank you enough for coming on the podcast and all the work that you're doing. if you haven't already, please like and subscribe, drop your comments below. We are gonna have all of the contact information for ABA so you guys can learn more. And Fred, thanks again for coming on, buddy.

Fred Ferguson 1:04:29

Hey, thank you. I appreciate it.

Speaker 2 1:04:58

Thank you for listening to the ground transportation podcast. If you enjoyed this episode, please remember to subscribe to the show on apple, Spotify, YouTube, or wherever you get your podcasts. For more information about PAX training and to contact James, go to PAX training.com. And for more information about driving transactions and to contact Ken, Go to driving transactions.com. We'll see you next time on the ground transportation podcast.