Scott Michael 0:00

anybody that's watching that isn't able to come out to DC for the flying, you can still reach out to your member of Congress back in the district. They have offices back there, they're always back there, especially in an election year. And, invite'em to come to your facility because you will get a couple hours, not just 15 minutes, you'll get a couple hours for them to see you, for them to hear you telling your story. And that's a great opportunity to really reinforce the message, whether you're able to do the flying or not.

James Blain 0:50

Hello everybody and welcome back to another exciting episode of the Ground Transformation Podcast. As always, I am your host James Blaine for PAXs training. Unfortunately, I do not have my esteemed partner in crime, my co-host, my favorite buddy, Ken Lucci, our m and a expert, I am sure he is no doubt brokering a massive deal, which we'll hear about later. But I am excited because I have another candidate and I also have my good friend Scott. So I'm really excited about this episode. We're recording it about a week after the UMA legislative fly-in, so I'm very lucky today to have Scott Michaels, the president of UMA. And then I'm also very lucky to have a second guest with me, right are Ken for the day. Ken Presley, who is the Vice President of Legislative and Regulatory Affairs and Industry Relations and the CEO over at UMA. Welcome guys. I'm very excited to have you guys on. It's your first time on the show, so welcome.

Scott Michael 1:42

Yeah, thanks for having us.

Ken_Presley_NR 1:43

going

James Blain 1:45

I flew in on Monday. I spent my first day with NLA doing their day on the hill. They were getting ready to go lobby, and then you guys took the lion's share of my week, which I was very happy about. I get spend time with you. I get to learn about your legislative flying. Can you guys tell us, you know, if you've never been to that before, if you're just kind of coming in from scratch, what is the legislative fly in for you guys?

Ken_Presley_NR 2:08

typically the um. The fly in consists of a, uh, a half a day orientation. Uh, this year we actually had an event, uh, which we'll probably talk about later, in the afternoon, but, uh, get everybody, uh, acclimated oriented to the agenda the following day. entire day is dedicated to appointments on the hill. most everyone knows we work with, a prime Policy Group they have a team of folks that, uh, that set up all the appointments. all the appointments are already pre-scheduled finalized, day before. actually go in and, uh, present their, uh, case, to their legislators or and in most instances, their legis staff.

James Blain 2:52

break that out for us. So for somebody that is not politically inclined, you know, we just think of the capital, right? We got all these people that are burning our tax dollars in the capital and arguing all the time. what does it actually break out? Like how is that split out? Who are we talking to? What are the two different sides that you guys are going to and how does that kind of work?

Ken_Presley_NR 3:12

Well, for us, when we're working, in the Capitol, we're primarily working with the Transportation and Infrastructure Committee and DC politics. Everything is very committee focused. it's hard to get, a random congressman interested in something when he's not on the, transportation and infrastructure committee. When their constituents come to see them, it doesn't matter if they're on the transportation and infrastructure committee, they're charged with looking after their best interest. So it changes the dynamics for the whole industry when constituents, bring these issues up with their elected leaders. Now, member has one house of Representatives. That's, that's usually the address where they live. Although we identify the, the address where their offices or their facilities are, if that's different. And then they have, of course, two U.S. senators.

James Blain 4:15

So I think the other thing that was a big surprise when I went there is it is almost like a college. you know, if somebody asked me, they said, Hey, you know, how would you describe it? I said, it's kinda like Hogwarts. And they looked at me like I had three eyes. Right. But, but you've, you've got all of these, and Ken, correct me if I'm wrong, you've got six different buildings. So you have the Senate on the north side. And Lord, Lord, help me. I think I'm gonna try and get the names. We'll see if I get it right. I wanna say Russell is the original building. That's the older one that is on the west side. And then I believe it's Hart and then it's Dirkson. I might have those two backwards. Right. And so you've other way around, right. Dirkson, then Hart. and so you have these three buildings on the north side where all the senators are, and you're kind of jumping between these. And then on the south side So you got Cannon, which is the original one. You've got Longworth and then you have Rayburn, and that's where all the house representatives are. So what kind of surprised me was it literally reminded me of my college dorm because you have all these offices side by side, and you spend all this time going from office to office. Now, this year for me was special'cause I got into the tunnels. there are tunnels that connect the three buildings on each side, but then there's tunnels that go through the capitol. help us understand with, that in mind, and knowing that this is almost like a college campus. You mentioned everything's committee driven. how are things actually getting done there, and then how does that play into why we need to be there?

Scott Michael 5:51

Well, there's not a lot getting done. That's, uh, the secret about Washington DC is not much is actually getting done, but, uh, the good news is that, in most cases, that's better than you know, than when they actually are doing something. Because a lot of times when they do something, it's bad and, uh, and, and makes things worse. So the, the government isn't always on our side and. And doing good positive things for us. So sometimes it's nice that, uh, that they're not able to accomplish a whole lot, but, uh, they, congress really needs deadlines. They need to have, something that forces them to act or they're not going to be able to, to actually focus their attention because they've got so many things going on. They've got, you know, all these different people coming in trying to ask'em to, to do things. They've got constituents, they've got lobbyists. They spend most of their time raising money so they can get reelected. So they're, they're busy doing all of that. So there's not a lot of time to actually govern or do much of anything. But once they have a deadline that they've gotta take action, then they really get their act together and, and do that. And so what we're seeing this year is there's, a deadline that we have in September 30th for the next, we, we call it the highway bill or an infrastructure bill. And so this is legislation that they adopt every five or six years. To fund the nation's highways to fund repairs for the highways, build new ones and other types of infrastructure projects that are transportation related. And that lasts five or six years and it's now time to do a new one because that, that much time has passed. And so they're starting to get their act together to try to, to come together with something because there's this deadline. If they don't, if they don't reach a decision by the end of September, then the money dries up and everything shuts down. So that's, that's really, in my view, at least how things get done, is when there's something forcing them to actually take action.

Ken_Presley_NR 7:48

might add that. while it's predominantly a, um, a bill that reauthorizes spending, uh, and how that spending is to be targeted because it's such a, huge bill and. It involves obviously transportation and those industries that the government has oversight of that. it's where major policy is adopted, at least for us, would be considered major policy. Uh, typically bills or issues that would not move or pass on their own can be included in these, uh, huge, spending bills. And that's why it's so critical, virtually everything that, affects the carrier industry. Ultimately started out in the, reauthorization bill. Um, that have affected us recently would be seatbelts that, uh, came through the reauthorization bill, electronic logging devices that, that came through the, uh, reauthorization bill. So right now we're trying to get the, uh, the Toll Parity Act uh, included in the reauthorization That would have a huge, impact. huge economic effect on our industry. the bill is predominantly a, spending bill and, focused on, highways. It's also a policy bill.

Scott Michael 9:23

And because they have so much trouble getting anything done, this is one of those few opportunities when something actually will get done, will get passed, will be accomplished. And so that's why everybody including, uh, UMA is trying to get our policy priorities to be included into that, uh, piece of legislation. And it's basically open season for anything that's transportation related to get, uh, lumped into that particular legislation. Ken, you mentioned the toll parity. That's, uh, that's one of the, the issues that we've been trying to, to get included in there. Um, do you wanna explain a little more about what that means?

Ken_Presley_NR 9:59

Sure. In the, reauthorization in 2005, December, 2005, Congress included in that reauthorization that, over the road bus, which is, a federal language for motor coach. The over the road buses were, uh, to, um, receive the same treatment for, tolls as, public transits. If the public transit paid a reduced rate, and the over the road buses were to receive those, reduced rates. if the public transit did not pay any toll, then that, that parity was to be extended to the, um, motor coach industry. that it, it was slow getting, getting started, but, um, uh, was, was finally getting traction. And, um, of the highways that fell under sections 129 and 166 were finally extending. that as Congress had intended. And then about two years ago, uh, there was an interpretation out of the last administration that, that did not extend to charter buses, that not at all what the bill says. And so, have two sponsors of the, uh, of this bill, H.R. 2526, that will clarify that this is to extend to all over the road buses, which includes charter buses. Yeah,

Scott Michael 11:33

And Ken, the other thing that, uh, that we've talked about a little bit, I think everybody's heard about that congestion pricing that New York City's implemented, uh, is, something that wasn't really included in the toll parity. And so we're trying to broaden that, the scope of that, to bring that type of special project into that. And, and so that we would get the same treatment there. I know for the scheduled service routes, they were able to get the, the equal treatment with the MTA buses. But, uh,

Ken_Presley_NR 12:00

excellent point, Scott. That is included in H.R. 2526, that would extend good trust in pricing, and that's not just to New York. That would be everywhere. And there is a lot of applications then to, um, uh, U.S. D.O.T. now for, uh, other cities that want to, uh, apply this congestion pricing. they've been watching New York and all the things that they've gone through, and, uh, New York has sort of paved the way for that. And it, it, uh, it raises a ton of money. in New York's instance, all that money is targeted to the, public transit, so it's about half a billion dollars last year. That's A lot of money. So, uh, other cities are taking note and, and, and, we'll see other cities in the next year or two, begin to come out, roll out their, uh, congestion pricing programs. So a successful, um, passage of, 2526 or inclusion in the, uh, highway reauthorization bill would, would pay dividends for, the motor coach industry for years and years and years to come.

Scott Michael 13:10

And that's probably more, uh, more possible to get that accomplished than completely overturning congestion pricing for everyone. That's a heavier lift. And so just a narrow carve out for us is the hope is that that's something that we can get through and get that into the legislation a lot more readily than, than a broader attack. Now, the other two, James, the other two issues that we, uh, that we talked about on the fly-in are not in the, in this highway bill that's, uh, that's coming up and that's really our goal is to keep them out of the highway bill. And so we added them to the agenda really to play defense and, uh, encourage Congress to not include them in the highway Bill when. There might be people on, on other sides of those issues that are, are thinking about trying to, to rope them in.

Ken_Presley_NR 13:58

Well, there's, there's advocates, on the hill pretty much every day that, uh, advocating for an increase in, um, the, uh, insurance limits or, Financial responsibility limits. Uh, we saw a two weeks ago that, uh, proposes to raise, um, property carriers or truckers raise their liability limits to five million. And reality is already five million. And the, if they're successful in getting trucks raised to five million, then the, argument would be passengers are certainly more valuable than, um, property and, should be insured for more. The current limit for trucking is 750,000. if you look at, the 5 million, that's a multiple of 6.7. if you apply that, same factor to um, uh, passenger carrier, that would indicate a limit of well over$30 million. dollars, Um, and everybody goes. Everybody goes, that's insane. That's not even possible. Guess what? That's what we said back in 1984 when they came out with 5 million. That was an unimaginable amount of money. And, um, we've just become acclimated and used, used to it now. But, um... the is that they don't, raise or adjust those limits often. And so they tend to, um, go for the goalposts when they, uh, when they do it.

Scott Michael 15:37

Yeah, when we travel around the country, insurance is certainly the, the number one issue that, that we hear, uh, from operators out there.

Ken_Presley_NR 15:45

It is right now, and of course our, our industry small and we don't have a lot of insurers, uh, in our industry. but, um, all indications are those limits are not even available. to us right now. It's a struggle right now to get to the five million.

Scott Michael 16:01

and if they do raise it to, to some higher level, it's not gonna be, uh, uh, for a lesser premium, it's gonna be a, a higher cost for the industry. So people are struggling already with the where, where things are just today,

Ken_Presley_NR 16:13

Yeah, that would be a, that would be a death now. So whether or not something comes out and reauthorization, the idea now is to create enough pushback that it doesn't, uh, that it doesn't appear. because once it appears, then you got to fight on your hands. So, but certainly advocates are up there on the hill right now, pushing to, uh, have these, uh, limits changed.

Scott Michael 16:41

Well, the insurance issue was the, the, the bottom issue on the, on the handout that we were passing out, up on the hill. But, uh, there were a few of the meetings I was in where the operators raised that one first because that's top of mind. And, and that was something that they wanted to, to make sure they emphasized. And certainly it doesn't matter what order you talk about the issues when you're advocating with these, uh, staffers. But, uh, it was just interesting to me that, that people were bringing that up as the first issue that that was top of mind. And then the, uh, the last issue that we had there was the charter rule. That's something that, uh, that we've been UMA has been involved with for many, many years. And I know you. Occasionally get an opportunity to take advantage of that rule and file charter complaints, uh, with FTA and and so forth. But we wanna just keep, again, playing defense, keep that rule intact. What I heard from the meetings I was in is that there hasn't been any push for that. No one has, has really been raising that issue. So, uh, I think, I think we've done a good job of keeping that in the forefront and, and making sure that it doesn't become a challenge.

Ken_Presley_NR 18:38

In the last reauthorization, the, house version included a, um, a, um, um, a provision that would allow the, um, um, local transit to do, um, to do charters under certain scenarios. Um, and certainly liberalized that rule. The, um, um, we fought and fought and fought, um. And we're able to make some modifications that made it, um, less onerous. but the reality is that it, it did pass the house, and we were very fortunate in that the Senate completely ignored it and, um, did not include it in their their bill and their bill, uh, very fortunately, prevailed. So we could never assume. You know, there's two things that the, the, the two things that could just take this industry out right now is, uh, more insurance premiums, higher limits, and, uh, Uh, modification of the charter service rule. It could, it, it, it would just, um, devastate the, uh, the industry. If you want to know, if you want to know what the world looks like, talk to, without a, charter service rule, talk to a, uh, Canadian carrier. They have no protections up there. And they do virtually no local charter work. All of their stuff is long distance and hence there's not very many carriers in Canada proportionately. So, um.

Scott Michael 20:24

So James, those are really the three issues that, uh, that we talked about in, in great detail up on the hill. So.

James Blain 20:30

Well, and I think one of the things that is, is worth diving into is a, a couple things that that came outta that, that I think we go back to the first. I think, and I, I brought this up and this has been one of my things for me. When I, when I looked at these three topics, the three things that hit me were first with toll parody. I am concerned that we are heading towards a United States where all highways are toll highways. Um, I am in Kansas City, which means that I spend most of my time in Kansas, but I cross the state line in Missouri on an almost daily basis. I also, because I love to drive for a living, I wouldn't be in safety and training if I didn't. I also see that we've got, you know, states around us. I go on road trips where. You know, you, you look at Colorado, Colorado's got toll infrastructure. You look at Oklahoma, Oklahoma's got toll infrastructure. Missouri's got toll infrastructure. Kansas, I'm surrounded by it, even in the Midwest. And one of the concerns I saw was the state of Indiana recently put in a law, and I don't have the the text of it, but basically it says they can take any highway they want and converted into a toll highway, even if it was built as a regular highway. So I think my concern becomes, knowing that we're going there, toll parity becomes a bigger issue. Especially because I can tell you from my friends and my colleagues and my customers up in the northeast, and I'm sure you guys hear this all the time too, it's not just toll parody, it's anything with a toll. You know, I was in New York state on a personal vehicle. I got a a hundred and something dollars toll bill I sent in to their request, address, my dispute. Instead of getting a response to dispute, I got a late fee and a demand letter. Right. God, I love New York. Not, Hey, we received your dispute. No, here's a demand letter. Um, and, and it literally, it was, Hey, if you don't have this paid in the next whatever amount of days, we're going to go for your license. So I think on that one, my question becomes what does that future look like? And how do we protect that in such a way knowing that they are privatizing and handing those to companies that aren't doing anything about it? That was a big one for me. And then on the charter protections and everything else, I mean all, all three of these issues, I gotta tell you, when it comes down to getting to just targeted messages, is it, but kinda taking us back to the toll part, is that just me? Is that what you guys see coming down the road? Is that, you know, are we going to end up at a world where we expect all highways to be privatized as toll roads?

Ken_Presley_NR 23:13

seems to be going that way. Um, you know, the last 10, 12 years, the Highway Trust Fund, is a fund that's funded by the, um, fuel taxes, has been coming up short and they've been having to work all types of magic tricks, uh, to, uh, come up with the money to meet the, uh, the authorized amounts. favorite one is, um, from the FAST Act was, uh, pinch and shaving. I don't even, I still to this day do not know what pinch and shaving is, but somehow

James Blain 23:45

Is that like the social security I've been told not to expect.

Ken_Presley_NR 23:48

something like that. so, know, one of the amazing parts about this is that when they passed the, uh, the interstate, Or the authority to build it, the interstate system. There was a, uh, caveat in there that it would never ever be told that it would always be free and open. And, uh, how Congress has magically worked around that is, uh, is opening Pandora's box and, uh, you can anticipate more and more and more of these, uh, stretches of interstates and parkways are going to be told Thank you for listening.

Scott Michael 24:20

And we're literally surrounded by that here in DC with the beltway. You know, having toll roads, or toll lanes, it's not the whole beltway, but there's special lanes that, uh, you know, if you wanna bypass the regular lanes with the congestion you can pay to, to drive in those. The only way they could afford to, to build those extra lanes, that extra lane capacity is to privatize. And, and so they sold it off to a private company. And, and that's, that's how they're able to, to add to the infrastructure. So you're seeing that decision being made all over the country as there's not enough funding. People don't wanna pay fuel taxes, uh, they don't wanna pay more in fuel taxes to fund it. So you've gotta find some way to capture revenue for that.

James Blain 25:03

Well, and I, I think one of the coolest things, but also one of the most terrifying things, had never seen it laid out like that is that sheet listing every single toll road that had some government funding, some government touch that was required to do parody. I would venture to say, and I would love to hear your thoughts. if we're able to get that bipartisan clarification Act pushed, what do you see that fight becoming to get them to actually recognize it and do it? Because, you know, I can tell you as someone that in another life was kind of on the financial side of things, you know, when you had someone that owed you money, you could go to a judge and they would issue you a judgment. They would say, Hey, they owe you the money, but then the real work comes and you gotta get'em to do it. it looks like we had some great support. I know at least when I did my visits, they understood it. They got it. and one of the things I remember, one of the, one of the guys that I talked to in, Roger Marshall's office is he said, yeah, yeah. It's not uncommon in DC for things to be interpreted. Whatever favors, whichever person needed it interpreted in that way. So, so for him, it was one of those things where it wasn't a surprise that we needed to have another act put in place to clarify the intent of the original act and lay it out. What do we see that fight continuing or looking like even after we get that done, if we're able to get it done?

Ken_Presley_NR 26:30

James, you make, you make an interesting point here. the Federal Highway initially put out a memo to, um, all of the, um, highways uh, fell under that list that you were referring to that was in your packet, which are uh, and that fall under sections 129 and 166, which is a point of law, I guess is the point I'm trying to make. the Federal Highway has told them that technically owe. differences in what was charged all the way back to the effective date of this bill, which again was December, I want to say the 5th, Don't hold me to that December. Any, uh, December of 2005. And I think some of that interpretation has played into, uh, the modification that took place a few years ago under the last administration. That, there's some real concern about that. And owing it and not having it doesn't change the fact that you. owe it.

James Blain 27:30

Well, you don't have to be a mathematician, an Archimedes, or a rocket scientist. To sit there and watch people go under the easy pass and do the math, right? The amount of money that these private companies are bringing in with the tolls, every business owner knows this, right? If there's not spread, there's not business, right? The smaller the spread, the less business there is. I can tell you right now, when you look at EZPass and you look at SunPass or you look at all of these different companies that are taking care of that, I'll use Pennsylvania as an example. Pennsylvania and, and I went on one road trip with my family to the East coast recently, and I can tell you in the four or five years had been since we went, the toll prices had skyrocketed and we crossed the state of Pennsylvania and they sent me a hundred dollars bill that had to be paid. But if you sign up for epass and you let us just take it straight outta your bank account, suddenly it's$50. So I think, the, for me it becomes. Okay. If we know that that's, you know, every car, right? We are in the family. SUV, just crossing now. You look at all the buses, all the trucks, all the vehicles, all the commuters. I think at that point I would assume that a lot of that is the companies, the private companies wanting to maximize profits. And, and maybe I'm wrong there, but I feel that that's a, a very profitable business if they're able to do that. And I think part of that becomes because you have that privatization there to a certain extent, I think that's part of what we're seeing now and we're hearing similar things, with technologies that were supposed to be saviors, right. I look at the cameras that they're now installing on school buses. I love the idea of someone driving by a school bus with a stop sign out and getting a ticket. However, we are hearing similar reports of a school bus drove past me on the highway and now I've got a ticket and I call the company and they say, you are trying to hurt children. And they forced me to pay it even though he passed me driving down the highway. Um, and literally I got the mile marker in the background of the photo they sent me. At what point does that fear or that concern kind of trumpet and, and that, I know that's more of a rhetorical question, but I think that's where I look at it is I think our industry, and I see it across all of pasture ground transportation, unfortunately, a lot of times I feel like we get looked at as an ATM and I know that's a sentiment that we see go out across a lot of different parts of it. But what do you think that becomes, or is this something where we have a plan on how we're gonna fight back to 2005? Is this something where, you know, we're gonna organize it? What does that look like, the day that we get that passed? And then what do we anticipate? The struggle being there.

Scott Michael 30:30

So once, you know, once we get 25, 26 approved, and that's the law. I think the first thing is making sure that that, that we get part of the, the bill is to get accurate information from each of the toll facilities about what they're actually doing. And there may be some of those 150 something facilities that don't give a special break to the public transits, and so we're still stuck paying whatever their, whatever they have, but once we know the public transits are getting 50% off or they're paying zero or whatever, once you have that information, then okay, we want the same deal going forward so that we don't have to pay any more tolls or we get a reduced toll going forward. Then we can worry about going back to 2005 and, and worry about collecting the pack, the, you know, the back tolls, but getting it fixed for the immediate, payments going forward, I think is the first priority and the first step. I know the folks up in New Jersey were able to, uh, negotiate with the, the tolling authorities up there, to get the parody in place, but only going forward, not any retroactive. Um, but that's what they were most focused on, most concerned about was getting it fixed for the future. And so I, you know, once we, once we get it adopted, then we can worry about how to go back and get refunds. But the main thing is gonna be getting the information so we know how to go after each of the authorities and what to ask for in those, particular areas. Hopefully there's a way to do it in, um, you know, in a broader sense without having to hit each of them one at a time. But, um, you know, right now we're focused on getting it approved.

Ken_Presley_NR 33:14

bill requires, the Federal Highway Administration to, to garner all that information. From the various toll authorities and publish that on the, uh, the Federal Highway, uh, website. So, all of those that were on that, uh, list in your packet, James, will be listed on the Federal Highway, uh, website and will will explain what the, uh, toll arrangements are with the public transit. Thank you. Um,

James Blain 33:42

Yeah. So we're, we're basically pushing the burden back on them now, which I like. Yeah. And I, and, and to your point, Scott, I think, you know, in terms of handling it. This is something that as we were discussing a second ago, I think is gonna get worse. So I think the fact that we've got a plan on, you know, we've got this clarification act in place, we're gonna be able to hopefully get that pushed through, then we start getting the data, then we start doing that. I think it presents us a really good opportunity to figure out what do we do now? How do we figure out how it affect us before, how do we take care of it? And I think for me, and, and I don't want to change the topic too much, but I think for me that's one of the big underscores of why these types of events are important. And I hear all the time from small operators and whatnot, well you know, that's for the guys with money, that's for the big huge companies. They're gonna go lobby, they'll go do this, they'll do that. And I think one of the things that I see year after year when I go is that there are parts of the country that are underrepresented. And I can tell you right now, I was lucky enough, I had you on one meeting, right Scott? The problem is I was outside my state. We were supporting John, if I remember right. That was, uh, Iowa. We went to right.

Scott Michael 34:51

Yep.

James Blain 34:52

So I think it's always interesting to note that, you know, we've got 50 states, which means you have two senators for each one. Depending on, on where you're located, you're gonna go see your house representative. Mine's very interesting because, you know, I've got the two Republican senators that I go see, which are usually great conversations, very pro business. and then I've got my, because I'm in the Kansas City area, I've got my Democrat, I go see, which is, is not always as receptive to the business side. Um, but they do a great job of trying to understand where we're at. And I think the important thing for me on these becomes understanding that even if you are, you know, I, I think about the bigger states. I always think to myself, well, you know, the California guys, the New York guys, you know, this and that. But I think it's also worth noting, like you said, Scott, a lot of this is done by committee. So even if you are in a state that isn't known to be as large, or isn't known to be as loud or isn't known to have. As many of those people in there, it could be that one senator that decides, Hey, I want to push on this, or, Hey, I think this impacts it, or, Hey, I feel this is important. And so I think for me, that becomes a really big issue and helping people understand that if you wait for these things to come down to you, you're basically hoping that everybody else does it and you can't really afford to do that.

Scott Michael 36:10

that's really what I learned in, in school was, uh, you know, that's the problem with, with, with, for the economic problem with, you know, with a lot of, you know, political activity is that everybody has an incentive to let somebody else do the work and then sort of coast off of their, their hard work. And, uh, we, we really do need to get all 50 states represented at the fly in, maybe not next year, but in the, in the years to come, we need to have representatives from each of the states there. You know, we are looking at, uh, at the list of the, the committee chairs who are leading this effort on the highway bill. the leading Democrat on both the house and the Senate side is from the state of Washington. And so we really need to have representation from Washington to meet with their, their senator, with their congressman, so that they can see somebody that's, you know, that's a constituent that, that's gonna be affected by that. And so trying to, to go out to those states where we don't have a lot of people coming and, and fill in those gaps is gonna be a, a, an important thing. But we also have that thing that you mentioned, that, uh, that, you know, as a Kansas resident, you were able to go with a neighboring state of Iowa. And, uh, you know, and, and if you're not going by yourself, we don't send you out all on your own. You have somebody that, that can be there and, and help with those conversations. And, uh, you know, especially for the first timers that you've got some backup there to, to, to have your back.

James Blain 37:31

Well, and, and I will say, you know, as someone who's gone with different associations, who's gone with different agendas, I am one of the few ones and probably the odd one, I think one of what I felt was the most productive conversations, um, I was in Roger Marshall's office. And when I was talking to their staffer there, we were one-on-one. And the nice thing about that is we really got to chat and dive in and he's asking questions and we're going back and forth. And it was funny because I was a little nervous. I was one I, I'd only last year, you know, I had our head of marketing with me, which always good to have your head of marketing. They didn't convince anybody of anything. Right. So I had my backup, I had Casey there with me. And so we had a couple meetings. It was just me, Casey, and then the staffer. And so that one I had with Margie Marshall's, staffer was my first one by myself. And I have to tell you, I think for me that was probably one of the best conversations of the day because I was able to really drill in and it was a one-on-one conversation. I felt like we built some rapport. He had really great questions. So I think a big part of this is also just becoming. Comfortable with it. And, and I, I know, and mine is black and white.'cause I gave out my color ones. I mean, having it laid out and being able to go and say, Hey, you know, here's what we've got. I think my favorite thing is I had three key points to make. And then the rest of that became really helping them understand the value of what we do, the value of the motor coach industry, what the motor OO industry does. And one of the things I kept coming back to is this saying that I've had for years that I came up with and that's, that transportation done right is transparent. It is incredible how many buses are in front of their office and they don't think about the guys running the buses or the gals running the buses or the companies behind the buses in front of their office. So with that kind of in mind, do you guys have anything that you would point to? You know, obviously, uh, I know that cares is gonna come up. What are some of the biggest successes or what are some of the biggest things? If you had to, to, you know, if you're, you're really trying to reach out to a listener and say, Hey, we need you to understand why you need to be here. These are the types of things we've been able to achieve. What are the ones that you can really point to and say, these are our big successes. These are the reasons we need you there. This is what we've been able to do and this is how the whole industry benefited.

Scott Michael 40:00

Yeah, I think Ken has been around for a lot more of those, those great victories. And, and, uh, you talked about the, the influence of an individual senator, and that's where, you know, Sue Collins and her work with the certs legislation really. Comes to mind that, uh, you know, that that one senator really decided, I'm gonna stand up for this industry and I'm gonna help them. And that can make all the difference to have an advocate out there that's passionate and, and willing to do that. This is a relationship game. It's all about building those relationships, those connections. And uh, and that's, you know, that's what's so critical to do that and to identify where you can do that. So I think you're right on James, in that conversation with the Senator Marshall staff, that having that ability to have that conversation and, and, and, and build that connection, build that rapport is, is really ni a nice outcome of that. But Ken probably has some other, uh, other victories that he can point to.

Ken_Presley_NR 40:56

some years ago as the, uh, the seat belt thing was evolving and it really. The seat belt thing really kicked off. Um, after the Bluffton accident in, uh, in Atlanta, Uh, you might recall that, crash, uh, Bluffton, uh, baseball team was headed down to Florida Spring training. And, um, it, was diverted of the HOV route onto an exit. And they shot right off a bridge and, uh, and, there was a terrible crash. And, um, so Senator, Kay Bailey Hutchison and, Sherrod Brown, introduced a bill in a nutshell mandated, three point belts and all motor coaches, including existing motor coaches. and give a date certain, which was, um, I think year, year and a half that, um, would have to be retrofit. was pretty onerous and, um, would have probably put some carriers out of business. particularly since some of those fleets we now know were, could not have been retrofitted. the infrastructure and the motor coach could could not accommodate seatbelts. So, um, we had a, uh, gentlemen, represented a, uh, company in Oklahoma that's was I think bought out by village. It was, uh, called Time. and It was, uh, Bob O and Bob O had been in to, uh, see his Oklahoma senator and, um. he had talked about, uh, seatbelts, although that bill was not in play at that time. he had talked about seatbelts and, and what have you. And uh, staffer recalled that as well as the senator and the senator directed the staffer to call and, uh, to know we, uh, thought about that bill. And, uh, he talked to him and said, well, you need to call, Ken Presley at UMA. And the staffer, I can remember now called me and I go, you support this bill? I go, hell no, we don't. support This bill. There needs to be, uh, uh, some, uh, deliberation. There needs to be some time. NHTSA needs to do some tests. This was before NHTSA even had done these, tests. And um, he goes, what we thought. It makes sense. And one thing most people don't know is that one senator can kill a Bill.

James Blain 43:16

Explain that. What do you mean by one? Senator

Ken_Presley_NR 43:18

Well, as they're, as they're, as they're moving before they, uh, can, can go to committee one Senator can say no. and this particular senator was known as Dr. No, and, uh, he said no. And it stopped it in his, in his tracks. And it gave us the breathing room that we needed to negotiate a bill that would lead to funding NHTSA to do the appropriate test and set the appropriate standards for, for motor coaches. And, uh, one of the things that came out of NHTSA study Was that, uh, they could not require retrofits because there was no way to establish standards. And that many of the motor coaches not have the underbody strength to, uh, to hold those. So, um, was a result of him coming to the fly in. year before this came up, and as Scott's pointed out many times, and I don't point it out often enough, one of the reasons to come to the ply in is to establish and continue a relationship with your legislator so that when these things do come up, that they pick up the phone and go, Hey, what is this? What am I looking at? How does this affect you?

James Blain 44:26

Well, and, and you've kind of led to something that is a myth or a misnomer. I, I wanted to kind of dispel and that's like, well, that's what lobbyists are paid for, right? You, we got lobbyists, you know, prime, all these guys. It is their job to convince them of what I need. It's, you know, I don't need to go there. I don't need to be there. What is the what? What is kind of what we're trying to achieve when we're doing a legislative fly? And everybody's coming in and meeting with the house representatives and with senators versus what the lobbyists are doing, and how do those work together and how do those dovetail.

Ken_Presley_NR 44:59

Yeah.

Scott Michael 45:01

a lot of different ways that those dovetail because there are some offices where you just can't get in the door as a lobbyist if you don't have the right connections or contacts. But as a constituent, they, they're, they've gotta let the constituent in the door to, to meet with people. And so you can plant that seed and, and start building that relationship. You can leave the, the flyer behind. and as a lobbyist, then you can follow up and say, Hey, you just met with a constituent last week or last month to talk about these issues. Can I come in and follow up and, give you some more details and, and, help fill in the blanks on that. So that's part of it. But also there's so much that has to be done by a lobbyist going in every day, pounding the pavement all the time. But it, it really helps to make that connection. You know, you see these lobbyists, it's, that's just a lobbyist, but when you see a constituent and they can paint a picture, and that really, James is, as you said, is, is a key part of these meetings is to explain who you're representing. this is my company. I employ 75 voters in your district. We provide transportation services for this college in your district. And we make sure that their sports teams can get where they need to go. So we're really servicing thousands of voters on that college that need to go somewhere. And we're helping the schools do this. And you're really painting that picture in that introduction, explaining who you are about why they should care. And hopefully they remember that you, you build that rapport. I, I mean, I remember the meeting that we were in with John and, and he grabbed the staff, the young staffer

James Blain 46:41

he had her laughing the whole time.

Scott Michael 46:42

oh yeah, she was laughing the whole time. But you know, went to one of the schools that he provides transportation for. And so he was like, okay, were you on a sports team

James Blain 46:51

When were you on my bus?

Scott Michael 46:53

right? When were you on my bus? And they went through that whole thing and she came out of that conversation. because she's laughing and because she built that rapport, with an understanding of who this is why we, they should care about Motor Coach and, it's a connection there. And so that's gonna be great.

James Blain 47:12

I think the other thing that you have to be aware of going into this is that you are not the only person they're going to see that day coming to you with asks. And, and I know when we were there, again, the best way to think about this, I always tell people, is to think about it like college. Maybe it's just because I have a, a college aged daughter and all the staffers are college age, but, it feels like dorms where people are coming and going and, you know, I can tell you right now when, when we were going into that office for Iowa. There was a group actually going in and meeting with the house representative while we were going into the hallway and meeting with their staffer and, there's constantly things going on there. I think one of the things that I really have to give John a pat on the back for, and you brought that up, is he was able to make it memorable. He found out the staffer was from back home with, that college that he serviced and he was able to give her something that she's gonna remember. if you walk in there and it's, Hey, you know, I'm James and I do this and I need that and thanks, you're not gonna have that same connection. I had a great conversation, in one of the offices because the girl working at the front desk when I signed in, she was from the same part that I was. Right. She's from down here in Overland Park, in southern Kansas City. So when it came time to meet with Courtney, you know, her and I are sitting there laughing, chatting about out, you know, being at home. She gets to see that interaction and now we're starting with, hey, you know, pleasure to meet you. You know, you got such great office staff. We just have to be from the same hometown. it's always funny because the way you really wanna hope this works is they're representing right. they care about where you're from and they care about how many people you employ because they really care about representing them, but if you really wanna look at it as glass is at the halfway point, instead of half full or half empty, part of that shifts both ways. They have to have those votes. They wanna know their voters. They want you to go back and tell everybody, hey, he's taking care of his vote for them. But at the same time, they also have to have that taking care of their constituents. Let me ask you guys, what is the single most important thing that someone would need to know about the fly-in? right? You can't afford not to know this. What would you each say that is?

Ken_Presley_NR 49:16

video I think, um, particularly charter bus companies tend to underestimate or, even think about it at all, how much interest the federal government has in transportation. And you can go back to the earliest years the, uh, the nation. And, there was immediate interest in roads followed by canals, railroads, trucking, and eventually, uh, buses and, uh, airlines included in that. federal government has a tremendous interest in mobility of the nation um, unlike, most small businesses in their community, this one, government has a lot of interest in and they have a lot of interest in regulating it. So it is only natural that you're going reach out to these, uh, legislators. The other point we mentioned a little while ago is to get a, relationship established that you're not a stranger. And so when the big monster in from a legislative perspective or from a rule-making perspective, that you're not a stranger, you're someone that, talked to them. I have to this one story with, we had a, bus operator that, um, made the journey and visited with his, uh, legislator invited him to come by his, uh, facility. And lo and behold, the legislator, his congressman, shows up and, um, visits his facility and winds up spending almost the entire day there. And this, this particular operator with regulations, And particularly his wife he dealt with regulations and and, and the congressman spent the day, uh, getting an earful of the onerous, uh, regulations that we have to deal with and what have you. Well, flash forward, lo and behold, in 2016, Donald Trump was elected and who does he appoint as the, overseer of the office and management and budget. But this congressman, that was Mark Mulvaney, and

James Blain 51:24

gosh.

Ken_Presley_NR 51:24

one thing you have to know about the office of management budget is that every proposed rule has to clear OMB before it can proceed on. And guess how many regulations affecting the motor coach industry got through OMB while Mr. Mulvaney was there. Zero.

Scott Michael 51:46

But that's a great point about, uh, the opportunity to, to visit with your member of Congress. When, when we were doing these, these meetings, you got 15 minutes, maybe 20, maybe 25.

James Blain 51:57

quick. It goes

Scott Michael 51:58

But we, we had a lot of people that invited them to come back to their facility and, and you know, anybody that's watching that isn't able to come out to DC for the flying, you can still reach out to your member of Congress back in the district. They have offices back there, they're always back there, especially in an election year. And, you know, invite'em to come to your facility because you will get a couple hours, not just 15 minutes, you'll get a couple hours for them to see you, for them to hear you telling your story. And that's a great opportunity to, to really reinforce the message, whether you're able to do the flying or not. You, you need to grab these people back home and, and, uh, and hit'em over the head with this stuff.

James Blain 52:36

I don't know if you guys have the same opinion, but one of the things that jumped out at me this year, is that you have these people that are making a country's worth of decisions. Nobody can hold that much information. It's not physically possible, even now that we have the days of ai, right, and chat, GPT knows everything and this and that, it's still really tough. To be able to account for everyone. And I think the biggest problem with not being involved, is becoming collateral damage. and who knows, maybe we have someone out there out for us, but I, I don't think that's the case. I think when they're having these conversations of, Hey, you know, we need to raise the limit on trucking and well, we already have a limit on busing. If we're gonna raise the limit on trucking, we'll raise the limit on busing. We'll do this, we'll do that. I don't know that they think to themselves. Yeah, well, if they go out of business, too bad. They don't even realize that could put someone outta business, It sounds like a great idea. the way I've looked at it, as, you know, you're walking through a garden and you don't see the anthill because you're trying to get to the roses and you step on the anthill and you kill all the ants. You know, I, I almost feel, and correct me if this is the wrong way to think about it, because I want it the right way to think about it if it's not, but I almost feel like a lot of this is we have to educate them on, These are the main things that we know are going on that could affect us, that we need you to be aware of. Because I can tell you, there were a couple times in DC last week where they were like, you know, we hear about insurance all the time, but you guys have people going at a business with the current limit. Yeah. And if you raise it, we're gonna lose even more of our brothers and sisters in the industry. So I think a lot of them don't realize that. Is that the right way to think about this? if you're someone listening to this podcast, is that something where you need to think about it as, Hey, if I don't go tell them I'm here, they might not see me down here and accidentally step on me.

Ken_Presley_NR 54:31

It's a good way to look at it.

Scott Michael 54:32

And James, we had, a couple people that had a, an appointment with a member of Congress who sponsored that bill to raise the limits on the trucking side of things. And they brought up that this bill, they, you know, our member didn't realize that that's who it was that they were meeting with. And, you know, they brought up the bill and, and you know, this is gonna be a problem and we need to make sure that this doesn't happen. And, you know, I just went on and on and on about this thing. And, and, uh, the member of congress, the staffer that they were meeting with was taking notes and, okay, you know, thank you for telling me this, to have that kind of background. And they never, fessed up that they were the sponsor of that bill, but, uh, they figured it out after the meeting. but they may not have had anybody in there before then saying, why, maybe this isn't a good idea. And so it's great that we had somebody in there to get them to think about it. I, I hear from people all the time, oh, I hate lobbyists. I hate, um, you know, I hate pacs. I just, you know, they're, they're evil and they're

James Blain 55:29

way, that is, that is Pac PAC, not Pax. PAXS. Right. They

Scott Michael 55:33

right. PAC, the pack.

James Blain 55:35

I'm just kidding.

Scott Michael 55:36

and you know, I have to explain to them, I, I understand that you don't like lobbyists, you don't understand that, you know, that you don't like a pac. you know, the way that, that funding works for everything, but there's somebody with a different view than you that's representing the other side on some of these issues. And they've got lobbyists and they've got a pack, and they're finding ways to, contribute to the campaigns. So, you're, you're gonna be undefended on your own if you don't get behind this effort and stand up and tell your members of Congress what's going on. And the local level too. There's lots of politicians, lots of issues. we've been talking, the whole time about dc but the same things are going on at the local level for a lot of different issues. You have to be involved at that level as well. And some of our state associations are, are doing this type of thing locally, and you need to be involved with that as well, because there's things going on there, especially in the insurance world. That directly affect your business.

James Blain 56:28

I think my mental model for that is informed decisions. So when I think about that, what I've noticed is in to your congressman, and you say, Hey, I want these five things, that is not as powerful as saying, Hey, I'm here with United Motor Coach Association. I wanna talk to you about toll parity. here's what you need to know. Here's the background. Here's what's already in place. Here's who's being affected, here's what's going on. And oh, by the way, what happened along the way is this legislation was already there. I saw that pop up a lot in insurance because I have this really unique perspective in that we handle training for all the passenger ground transportation. So I remember one of the meetings I was having, we were talking about, you know, the$5 million insurance limit and, and why raising it with bat. And I said, look, what you have to realize is if I as a trial attorney know that you have a$5 million limit, everything's a$5 million lawsuit'cause you got it. However, if you look at other parts of passenger ground transportation that are not federally regulated, they will not go over whatever their state. Minimum requirement is, and unless they're obligated by a contract, and a lot of guys will walk away from a contract in smaller ground transportation, or they'll say, Hey, we need to bring that down. Because they know that as that limit goes up, they're always gonna go for it. we talk really hard about not using industry jargon. So I purposely, explained it. I said one of the other problems we have are, things called nuclear verdicts. A nuclear verdict is anything that's in excess of$1 million. We're seeing the nuclear verdicts increase because if you've got a$5 million policy, they're going for the policy limit. Even these smaller accidents, right? We've seen accidents where no one's on the bus, somebody crashes into the bus, and suddenly it's, this massive, lawsuit. I really feel like it's giving them the information. To help them make the decision in our favor and be aware of it. And like you said, I think most importantly at the local level, all of them have offices. All of them care about being reelected, but there's other levels of local government within your state that has the same problem. They might not have ever talked to anybody from your industry. So I, I love where you're going with that. if you are listening to this and you weren't at the legislative fly in, obviously put it on a calendar for next year, right? This's, step one. But what do they do in between to get involved, to try and effect policy, to try and make sure that they're giving these people in government the information they need.

Ken_Presley_NR 59:16

as opportunities come up often, we, um, ask the, uh, members to, uh, write their congressmen even to the point that we, uh, we we have a preformed letter for them. All they have to do is click on, put in their data and, send off the letter. Uh, watch for those and pay attention to those. And please send, those letters. Not everybody does. and oftentimes it's critical when we send those alerts out, uh, it's really important. the other thing, and Scott pointed this out a little while ago, is that, your congressman has at least one, oftentimes three offices in your district. And knowing the staff, which is oftentimes one person, but knowing those people, that work for that congressman in your district can be very, very helpful. And visiting them occasionally, asking them to come by, and just, tell them what's going on and what, you're hearing out of Washington, D.C. and express some of your concerns. Just keeping connected with them doesn't take a lot of effort and yields a huge dividends.

James Blain 1:00:18

So if we had to leave everybody with one last final thought, then knowing that now they know how to get involved, If, if you had one sentence, right. If, if somebody just listened to one sentence outta this entire episode, and I know we've touched on ton, what is that one sentence?

Scott Michael 1:00:33

it's important to understand that these people work for us. I mean, there are members of Congress, they are our representatives and They work at our pleasure. They have to get reelected to be in office. And so we should tell them what we need, make sure that we take advantage of the, beautiful thing that is America and that opportunity to share with our members of Congress what we think about things.

James Blain 1:00:56

I don't know that I could have said that any better. So I wanna thank you both so much for coming on, Scott. Ken, I know that you guys put a lot of time, a lot of effort into the legislative flying and everything you do at UMA and I want you guys to know we appreciate it. to our listeners, thank you guys so much. Hopefully you've enjoyed this episode. If you missed the legislative fly in, I can tell you right now, going to DC is one of my absolute favorite events. I have learned so much. So thank you all for listening and we will see you guys on the next episode of the Ground Transformation Podcast.

1:01:26

Thank you for listening to the ground transportation podcast. If you enjoyed this episode, please remember to subscribe to the show on apple, Spotify, YouTube, or wherever you get your podcasts. For more information about PAX training and to contact James, go to PAX training.com. And for more information about driving transactions and to contact Ken, Go to driving transactions.com. We'll see you next time on the ground transportation podcast.