Ira goldstein 0:00

We pay drivers $400 to take a defensive driving class. We have a wellness program they learn how to handle luggage, nutrition, so that they're taking care of themselves. that class, I think we pay $250. We have an online class and another class that we have called the RIDE class, Road Instruction Driver Education, where they learn additional safety instruction, and they learn about all the other benefits that we provide for drivers, and we pay them for that class as well. And they could get paid for all these classes every three years And we go through certified vendors, so they get, they get the same point reductions, I think 6,600 drivers came through in 2025 that came through our facilities,

James Blain 1:13

Hello, everybody, and welcome to another exciting episode of the Ground Transportation Podcast. This is my favorite day of the week. This is probably one of my favorite things to do, and I'm joined by one of my favorite people, my partner in crime, my co-host, my Ken Lucci, my financial expert. How you doing,

Ken Lucci 1:28

tired today. Very tired. It's been a long week. I've been looking forward to this all day. I kept telling people, "Let's-- We have to finish these meetings because I have to be on the podcast."

James Blain 1:38

Got his priorities straight. I love it. I love it. We're also really excited because Ken, you're actually in New York,

Ken Lucci 1:45

I

James Blain 1:45

we're gonna be talking about the Black Car Fund. We are lucky enough to have Ira, the executive director of the Black Car Fund and good friend. So I'm super excited about this episode. Ira, welcome to the podcast,

Ira goldstein 1:55

Oh, thank you for inviting me, guys. I'm, I'm honored. I was flattered when you both spoke to me. I did a chauffeur-driven in LA, so glad to be here.

James Blain 2:03

No, we are super stoked. You guys have something I would venture to say is magical. There is nothing like it that I know of in the entire country. But I think before we get to the Black Car Fund, it's important that they also stand your pedigree and kind of your background. So can you tell us a little bit, how did you get to the Black Car Fund? What's your background, Ira?

Ira goldstein 2:24

Sure. So, uh, right immediately prior to joining The Black Car Fund, I was chief of staff at the New York City Taxi and Limousine Commission during the, uh, Bloomberg com, uh, the Bloomberg administration. I worked, uh, for Matt Daus for almost, uh, 10 years.

James Blain 2:42

What

Ira goldstein 2:44

So,

James Blain 2:44

that like?

Ira goldstein 2:46

it, it was, it was very hectic at times. it was very stressful at times. frankly, in the beginning, I hated it. I came from Wall Street prior to that. I was a lawyer by background. I did some in-house legal work, regulatory compliance for a small broker-dealer, and I came to, under circumstances, my father was very sick. I was out of work a few months and, uh, I started at the, uh, Taxi and Limousine Commission as a per diem attorney, and I hated the red tape and, uh, I, I felt like I couldn't get out of there soon enough. And then, 9/11 happened, frankly, jobs on Wall Street dried up then I really got into the public service aspect of it. And once I got used to the, uh, some of the bureaucracy of working in government, I found that I was doing, uh, I was doing very useful and meaningful work, and I, I really got into it at that point.

Ken Lucci 3:39

Now, Matt, was he, was he executive director or no?

Ira goldstein 3:42

Matt was... His, his title was commissioner chair. So the chair was the, uh, is sort of the president and the commit- That's the paid position, and then there was a board of commissioners, so he was, he had the joint title

Ken Lucci 3:55

And for those of you who don't know, we're talking about our friend Matt Daus, who's one of the pre- preeminent transportation lawyers, if not the preeminent in the industry in the United States, who works for Wendell Marks. And before working for Wendell Marks, he was a TL- the TLC, the head of the TLC. And that's when he br- he brought you in. Did you know Matt before that?

Ira goldstein 4:17

I knew him briefly. We, uh, went to law school together,

Ken Lucci 4:20

But Ira, you look so much younger than him.

Ira goldstein 4:22

Well, thank you, but he's a, he's actually, uh, uh, if he listens, listen. He's, he's six years younger than me. I took off a couple years between college and law

Ken Lucci 4:30

But I- Ira, you look so much younger than Matt Daus.

Ira goldstein 4:34

I just got a tan. I was just on vacation, so

Ken Lucci 4:36

There you go. Okay,

James Blain 4:37

I, I think it's 'cause he used to play hockey. That'll, that'll do it for you.

Ken Lucci 4:40

So how long did you stay at the TLC? Wow.

James Blain 4:43

I, I mean, it... Well, it-- So it's a completely different landscape, right? You mentioned post 9/11, right? That world of the TLC in New York is very, very different than the world we have now. What are some of the key things, you know, if we've got younger listeners, we got people that, you know, never visited New York in that era, can you kind of set the tone of what, what did that look like in those days?

Ira goldstein 5:05

Well, for starters, there was no Uber or Lyft. I think as you mentioned, the younger generation, that would be the biggest distinction. the, uh, taxis, the yellow cabs as we refer to them in New York, they played a much larger role in, in New York City. Uh, so the, the landscape was predominantly yellow cab. You had black car operators, uh, and Lux Limo that, uh, that worked with, uh, corporate accounts and still do. And then you had the livery industry, which, uh, basically is, uh, community car services. and then you had, at the time it was referred to more as paratransit, which I think you would refer to today as, uh, NEMT, the non-emergency medical transport.

Ken Lucci 5:49

So New York is one of the h- most highly regulated markets in the world.

Ira goldstein 5:55

Absolutely. Absolutely.

Ken Lucci 5:57

and your categories were of pre- pre-TNCs, what? 15,000, uh, yellow cabs?

Ira goldstein 6:05

Slightly under. Yes.

Ken Lucci 6:07

Okay. And then what would you say for black car?

Ira goldstein 6:10

Black car at that time was probably around 25,000,

Ken Lucci 6:16

No ki- That

James Blain 6:18

Wow. Wow. Is this when the line was somewhat blurrier between the black car and the taxi cab world? 'Cause from what I understand, there was a time when that line was a little blurry. You might have cab guys driving black cars. You might have, you know... It wasn't as distinct Products, the kind of the way that it is now where you have taxi and limo, there was kind of a blurring of the line. Was that the case back then?

Ira goldstein 6:40

I think you got to go even back further to before my time. I think back in the, uh, in the mid, hmm, probably about the mid-'80s, what happened was the taxi industry was very strong, and they were able to keep a cap on the number of medallions. you just couldn't put a, put a car on the road. And, uh, eventually, uh, what happened was since there was really a lack of service, they ended up creating the black car and the livery, or in the bigger category, and luxe limo, uh, the for-hire vehicle industry. Because, before that, the, the TLC, the Taxi and Limousine Commission, was formed in 1971. It came out of the New York City, uh, Police Department. They referred to it as the Hack Division, the Taxi Division. And in the city charter, they said they were mandated to regulate taxis, but they were given the option of regulating other for-hire vehicles. And then in the mid-'80s, the city council took action, and the TLC was mandated to regulate, uh, the for-hire vehicle industry.

James Blain 7:50

Okay,

Ken Lucci 7:51

When did black car explode into the 25,000 cars?

Ira goldstein 7:55

It, well, it started when they first actually, when they formed, when there was the, uh, the legal change that laws were passed to form the for-hire vehicle industry, and it was broken into luxe limo, black car, and liveries. And that's when it really started to explode. Uh, you know, 'cause up to that point, you had taxis were able to do pre-arrangement.

James Blain 8:17

Right.

Ira goldstein 8:18

when they formed the for-hire vehicle, they weren't, they were not allowed to do pre-arrangement. They had to work strictly on street hail.

James Blain 8:25

But they also never had a cap, right? Because, you know, you have the medallions on the taxi side. They never capped limo in the same way, did they?

Ira goldstein 8:34

That's correct. Not until, not sure exactly, but maybe about five, six years ago. And the city, the city TLC is required to issue an annual report, on whether or not they believe that there's, uh, there's sufficient for-hire vehicle, uh, vehicles out there. And the only ones that are allowed to go on the road as of right is the, uh, wheelchair accessible vehicle right now.

Ken Lucci 8:59

Gotcha.

Ira goldstein 9:00

And at one point it was the electric vehicles, but I believe there is, there is a, a limit on those now as

Ken Lucci 9:05

tell us a little bit about your transition from the TLC to the Black Car Fund, and then we'll get into what the Black Car Fund does.

Ira goldstein 9:15

Well, it was, it's a political position, and Matt had decided during, uh, Bloomberg's third term that he was, He had many years of city service even before the TLC. He worked at other city agencies, and, uh, he decided to go out and start his private practice. I stuck around for a few more months after that, frankly, not knowing what my next step was gonna be, but knowing that I had an expiration date on me because chief of staff is a pretty political position. Uh, e-every head of the agency wants to bring in their own chief of staff and, and their own executive assistant. So,

Ken Lucci 9:50

It's just unfortunately the nature of that

Ira goldstein 9:52

yeah, it, it really had nothing to do with my performance. So, I, uh, you know, so I was trying to figure out what I wanted to do next. I was lucky that the, uh, the, the gentleman, David Yassky, who took over for Matt, he gave me time to, uh, to find my footing. And, uh, one of the legends or, of the black car industry, Victor Diesinghof, he decided he was going to retire, and he approached me if, uh, if I was interested in coming in f- in taking over for him. And, uh, we have a word in Yiddish, like a schmuck. I told him I had to think about it, a-and met with him for dinner a couple times. Like, uh, I honestly, I didn't know what I was gonna do next. and then, uh, I interviewed, and there was an interview process, went through four interviews, and, uh, the final one was with the whole Black Car Fund board, and I was fortunate enough that they, uh, they hired me and, and I've been there ever since.

James Blain 10:47

So for those that don't know, tell us about Victor, 'cause you dropped a name, right? We know he's a legend, but if you are younger in the industry, you weren't there then, you're wondering who is Victor? Tell us about Victor.

Ira goldstein 10:58

Victor, I used to affectionately refer to as the godfather of the black car industry.

Ken Lucci 11:03

Oh,

Ira goldstein 11:04

and he had, he had the chops to, uh, to match that title. he, uh, basically was with the black car industry. He was a, one of the principals of Vital Transportation, which is still around today. And, uh, he was the founder. He started the Black Car News. he was there in the beginning, and he was really the founder, and he's the one that got the whole Black Car Fund off the, uh, off, out of the starting gate and, uh, into, and made it into a, uh, into an organization, guided it through the whole, through the whole legislative process, which was, uh, very interesting. And, uh, sure.

James Blain 11:46

Yeah, and, and how, how far before was that before you get moved over as well, right?

Ira goldstein 11:51

Yep. So the Black Car Fund, uh, was founded in 1999.

James Blain 11:56

Okay.

Ira goldstein 11:57

it started covering black car bases in 2000, I believe. And it was in response to, uh, the fact that, the bases were getting some inconsistent decisions from the Department of Labor in terms of the employer, the employee status,

Ken Lucci 12:13

Mm-hmm.

Ira goldstein 12:13

the drivers being independent contractors. And it took several years. And, you know, and Victor did a, a phenomenal job in terms... And the other founders, I refer to them as the OGs of the black car industry,

Ken Lucci 12:25

The guy-- They should have, they should have statues erected to them in New York.

Ira goldstein 12:29

You know, uh, it would, they solved the problem. You know, and I'll give you another little fun fact, because both of you guys are really knowledgeable about the industry, but the model that the Black Car Fund is based on is loosely based on the, uh, horse jockey industry.

Ken Lucci 12:46

Right. Yes. Same situation, right? They were all 1099s. And geez, they would fall off horses and, oh my God, e-end

James Blain 12:55

then get trampled.

Ira goldstein 12:56

Exactly. You know, they would work for multiple owners, multiple trainers in the course of a day's races, right? So it was loosely based on that model.

Ken Lucci 13:04

And who would you say thought up the Black Card Fund?

Ira goldstein 13:09

Well, it was, you know, you had all the originals. You had John Acierno, you had Victor, and many others, Diana Clemente. There were a bunch of others as well. but they also, they, uh, they leaned on, there was a, uh, gentleman that was, uh, uh, probably one of the f- you know, one of the leaders in workers' comp, an attorney, and his name was Marty, uh, Markowitz. And they had him on, they had him on board, and they came up with this. And like I said, it, it was a couple-year process to get the legislation through. It was under a Republican governor that came up with these, that came up with these protections for independent contract. It was under Governor George Pataki. and, uh, it was just, you know, I, I know you both, we've spoken, you know, you have an admiration for the Black Car Fund model, and when I got involved, I just, I couldn't believe how great it was.

Ken Lucci 13:57

tell us about what it does for the drivers, for those who don't know

Ira goldstein 14:00

Sure.

James Blain 14:02

we jump into that, I would also be curious, is the black car fund, was it proactively created or reactively created? Is this something that it came to a head, the problem had to be solved? Or is this one of those times where, hey, we see issues coming, we get ahead of them?

Ira goldstein 14:18

Yeah, I think it was a little bit of both I think it was that there were some, uh, you know, there were some situations where they were concerned about, uh, decisions that were coming down about the actual status of the drivers, employee or Department of Labor versus, you know, labor decisions where they were independent contractors. And I also think there was a recognition by the industry that they wanted to do something proactive for the drivers, and they were able to solve both at the same time.

James Blain 14:46

So how does that-- now, now to Ken's part. Sorry, Ken, I didn't mean to jump in front of you there, but I, I wanted to understand the reasoning, because to Ken's point, what, what problems are they solving and how do they find to solve

Ira goldstein 14:57

Well, it cemented that they were independent contractors, the drivers, so it pretty much solved that problem. And again, you know, as, as a unique business model that as far as I know, it might be a unicorn, that these are independent contractors that have full workers' compensation benefits. And I'm sure what you'll wanna discuss, we go even above and beyond that, so...

Ken Lucci 15:19

Right. So the Black Car Fund, you're not the actual insurance company, you're the benefits company, correct?

James Blain 15:27

And you're not a union, right?

Ira goldstein 15:29

we're not a union, but we're, we're kind of both, Ken, because we're self-insured, so we are, we're our independent, we're our own carrier. We do everything in-house. Uh, I have, you know, my, my claims team is 70 people,

Ken Lucci 15:42

Wow. Wow.

Ira goldstein 15:44

Yeah. You know, uh, we pay out all our own claims. All we do is we require, we, we carry the, uh, minimum amount of excess insurance that we're required under state law, so we have an excess insurance policy.

Ken Lucci 16:00

like reinsurance

Ira goldstein 16:01

yes, same, yes. Uh, pretty interchangeable. Yeah. we do virtu- I mean, we have a lot of vendors to administer the program, but we do everything in-house.

James Blain 16:09

But is that all aspects of insurance from-- uh, because you've got a lot of different types of insurance that come into play. What are the verticals that you guys are tackling as they relate to the drivers?

Ira goldstein 16:20

Sure. So we have the workers' comp and, we've, and we have over the years gone beyond that. so we have the workers' comp. We have, uh, we pay drivers to take a defensive driving class. We just this month, we, or last month, we increased. We pay drivers $400 to take a defensive driving class. We have a wellness program that we pay them, uh, that, uh, they learn how to handle luggage, nutrition, so that they're taking care of themselves. Uh, that class, I think we pay $250. We have an online class and another class that we have called the RIDE class, Road Instruction Driver Education, where they learn additional safety, additional safety instruction, and they learn about all the other benefits that we provide for drivers, and we pay them for that class as well. And they could get paid for all these classes every three years And we go through certified vendors, so they get, they get the same point reductions, and everything else that you're, you're familiar with that are pretty commonplace. So, and we, I think we, we, we had, uh, I think 6,600 drivers came through in 2025 that came through our facilities, that we partner with.

Ken Lucci 17:33

so so y- it's a 60-- it's 6,500 drivers in the, in your base? In your-- I'm sorry, in your membership, so to speak?

Ira goldstein 17:41

Our membership that we cover is well over 100,000. Um, the 6,600 number, Ken, is just who we paid to take a defensive driving

Ken Lucci 17:51

exactly. So tell me something. What's the breakdown of the 100,000,

Ira goldstein 17:55

in terms of, uh, you know, New York, as you, as you know, it's very highly regulated, so Uber and Lyft are referred to as volume for-hire vehicle drivers in New York City. Outside of New York City, New York State, they're referred to as the TNCs, Transportation Network Companies. So there, in terms of the drivers that, we cover, that's, uh, an overwhelming, uh, majority. but what's interesting is while Uber and Lyft are the overwhelming majority of the revenue and the drivers, w- it's not the drivers that are the actual members of the Black Car Fund, it's the bases. And we have over 650 base members in New York

James Blain 18:39

a base is.

Ken Lucci 18:43

for those guys out in Kansas City that don't have to have any base license.

James Blain 18:47

Yeah, I, I gotta tell you, I, I think it's more than just Kansas City there, buddy.

Ira goldstein 18:51

Well, you know, so the, uh, so a base, is basically the dispatch facility. So there's a, there's a state license called the CDF Central Dispatch Facility that all of our members must have, okay? In New York City, to have a base, a for-hire vehicle base, you have to have at least 10 vehicles that are affiliated with that base. There's no such requirement outside of New York City. the regulatory landscape outside of New York City is, is much, uh, is not as, uh, s- as significant

Ken Lucci 19:25

To say the

Ira goldstein 19:26

City.

James Blain 19:27

and, and that brings up a really good point, 'cause we should clarify, right? 'Cause we keep hearing New York. Is the Black Car Fund a New York State program or a New York City program,

Ira goldstein 19:36

We've always been, great question. I mean, we've always been New York State.

James Blain 19:41

Yeah, so you go all the way out to Buffalo, right? People don't think about it, but, you know, New York City and Buffalo, it's a bit of a drive. It's, it's

Ira goldstein 19:47

seven, eight hours.

James Blain 19:48

Yeah.

Ira goldstein 19:49

So, yeah, so you know, we, we are statewide. I think before my time We were overwhelmingly New York City based, and one of the things that, uh, I made one of my missions when I got there was I wanted to be truly a statewide base. So I started to, I started to attend, uh, the, uh, you guys know Dave Bastian and Kevin Barwell and Bill Yunkey. So I started going up to their conferences and, uh, Bill Yunkey, who has Liberty Cab, who's, uh, the main taxi and

James Blain 20:21

He runs a radio station too out of it. The guy's incredible.

Ira goldstein 20:24

he's, I just spoke to him yesterday. He's gonna run Black Car Fund ads for the, uh, on the Yankee broadcasts upstate. And he is actually, uh, he's a good friend. I'll be seeing him Monday, and I actually got him, uh, my board agreed to add him. The BCAC agreed to add him, so he's been a board member for several years now on the Black Car Fund,

James Blain 20:46

he's

Ira goldstein 20:46

he is one of, he is a great ally. He does whatever he can to help, to help the drivers and to help the Black Car Fund. I love him.

Ken Lucci 20:55

he's a fantastic operator. He lives, he walks the talk, and he, he lives what he talks

Ira goldstein 21:00

Yep, and those radio stations are his passion though.

Ken Lucci 21:03

Sure.

James Blain 21:04

and I will also sneak in there, he has a bubble hockey game in his office, so he is also one of us.

Ira goldstein 21:09

And he's got a yellow cab in his garage. He's got a beautiful redone, you

James Blain 21:14

class act. Class act.

Ira goldstein 21:15

Yes. He's got an old Checker.

James Blain 21:17

Yes. He's, it-- Yeah. Yeah. Well, if you ever get to go visit his office, right, he has got this cool glass case, and he's got all of the, like, meters, everything. This is one of those guys that came up in the business, knows the history of the business, and one of my biggest things is always learning from the past. He is happy to teach you the lessons they learned along the way. And when he led TTA, I was lucky enough to work pretty closely with him when I was on their, their safety and risk committee. And I gotta tell you, he's, he's one of my favorite people. It's, it's awesome to hear you've got him on the board.

Ken Lucci 21:49

So close to 100,000 drivers between the Uber and Lyft drivers, the taxi drivers, and black car drivers. in addition to workers' comp, you do some other things. You've got short-term disability?

Ira goldstein 22:04

All right. Let me see if I can remember all of it. Okay.

Ken Lucci 22:07

Just go through the big

Ira goldstein 22:08

yeah.

James Blain 22:09

get the menu out. Get the menu

Ira goldstein 22:10

we have a non-work accident disability. We have a critical illness policy. We have, we just added last month a hospital indemnity policy where if drivers, besides all these other, what referred to as voluntary b- benefits in the industry, they also get paid when they're in the hospital per day. we just o- we just added lifeline screening, which does, uh, the, uh, heart, stroke, and optional colorectal cancer screening. Uh, so we added that program. They could get that when, uh, when they are in your neighborhood. like I said, we have those other classes we pay for The drivers have a better dental plan than I do. Okay. They, they get a $2,000 annual, okay, benefit. we have a vision plan. We also have a vision van which goes to areas that the drivers frequent, so it's out at the airports a lot. We have formed partnerships with Memorial Sloan Kettering Cancer Center, and they come to our... We have a whole separate facility. We have a driver education center. We got another close to 8,000 square foot facility with three, with three classrooms, and they will come down, uh, almost weekly and when we do driver resource fairs, and they provide free screening for the drivers. And we also just recently started a, a, uh, partnership with, uh, Mount Sinai Hospital, and they have a prostate, uh, screening, uh, van, and they will bring the van down and we give them one of the classrooms, and they'll do blood tests and they'll screen, uh, the drivers for that as well. So we, we're always on the lookout of whoever we could partner. We have a mental wellness program that we do with the Independent Drivers Guild. They administer that for us. That was in response to some years ago, there was, uh, there was a, a, a, it was tragic. It was mostly based on, uh, uh, financial issues, but there was about seven or eight drivers in all the TLC industries that committed suicide. So in response, we partnered with IDG and we started this, uh, a mental wellness program that also provides financial advice, uh,

Ken Lucci 24:18

Now IDG is who-- who are members of IDG?

Ira goldstein 24:22

IDG, their members are pretty much, uh, Uber and Lyft drivers statewide. Mostly New York City, but they, they do cover them statewide.

Ken Lucci 24:30

Independent Drivers Guild, not to be confused with a union.

Ira goldstein 24:34

Correct. They are affiliated with the Machinist Union, so that, and I have a, uh, Machinist Union member, another great board member I have, Norman Shreve, uh, who's a Machinist, uh, Union. Uh, he's high up there and also he's, uh, he's also Buffalo-based,

Ken Lucci 24:51

Now, if I'm a New York base, do I have to be a member?

Ira goldstein 24:55

Yes. it's, so how it works, the legi- what the legislation says is that if you do 90% or more of your business on a non-cash basis and you own less than half your vehicles, then you must be a member of the Black Car Fund.

Ken Lucci 25:14

Interesting.

James Blain 25:16

where does this leave, like, your true independent operator, right? Because you're, you're talking about the bases. If you have someone that's a true independent operator, how do they participate?

Ira goldstein 25:27

Well, you don't have too much of that in New York. You, you know, and there's that 10-vehicle affiliation requirement in the city, but you can be smaller outside of the city, so you just apply for your central dispatch facility license With, uh, the New York Secretary of State who has oversight of us, and then you could be a member of the fund. But there's not many of those. Very, very few.

Ken Lucci 25:49

why isn't this in every single state, or at least the top 10 markets? So let's set the stage. New York and New Jersey is about 45% of, of the market. Uh, it is. It's that big. And then you've got Los Angeles is the next biggest.

Ira goldstein 26:10

Mm-hmm.

James Blain 26:11

market. Yeah.

Ken Lucci 26:12

Why isn't this... I, I, I mean, it-- Because most of these guys have no benefits.

James Blain 26:18

Right. Well, and you got your Bostons, your Miami, your-- I mean, there's plenty other large enough markets.

Ira goldstein 26:24

Yeah. I, I think there's a few reasons. when I first came to the Black Car Fund, I, you know, I thought I was gonna, you know, I wanted to take this everywhere and, you know, I started speaking engagements wherever I could, transportation lawyers, every, the different, uh, you know, different associations that, that you gentlemen are familiar with. And it, and while everyone tells me how great the model is, I'm involved with the workers' compensation, regulators, and everybody says it's such a great model, but there's never been the wherewithal. There's never been anyone that has the interest. I, I was ready and willing to help, uh, spread the word and help people set it up, and I, I think part of it is, there needs to be a mandate, okay? For starters. There has to be, uh, some, whether it's state or citywide, there has to be a mandate because otherwise, we have, it's almost a quasi-taxing authority because there is a, we have currently a 2.5% surcharge that gets put on every ride

James Blain 27:25

Oh, and

Ira goldstein 27:25

place, and that's how we get the funding.

Ken Lucci 27:28

But that's the beauty. The driver doesn't pay.

Ira goldstein 27:30

Right.

James Blain 27:32

and, and programs like that exist, so I know that in the state of, I believe it's in the state of Massachusetts, 10 cents from every rideshare trip gets put into a fund, and that goes towards, you know, traditional services. However, from

Ira goldstein 27:45

leave sometimes, different

James Blain 27:46

Yeah. Yeah. I, I, I will say, though, I know for a fact that that one, they don't have, there is no wing of that, right? So as far as I know, they've ever paid out of that once. I, I don't know the story of, of where the funds went. but that's only ever paid out one time. So this is completely different, where you are actively working

Ken Lucci 28:05

this is ongoing. This is ongoing

James Blain 28:08

this is incredible.

Ira goldstein 28:09

average, gentlemen, we average 5,000 workers' comp claims. We open up 5,000 files a year, and actually so far this year we're on a, we're on a record pace to go even higher

Ken Lucci 28:21

But out of 100,000, 100,000-plus members, drivers, and the fact that most of these guys are working Lots of hours. That's not that bad.

Ira goldstein 28:33

No, you know, it's interesting you say that because in New York, uh, specifically I know New York City, for-hire vehicle drivers are actually much safer than, than your average driver like you or I. they're putting more miles on the road, like you said, uh, but they're careful. They're professionals. So they really, when you look at like accidents per 100,000 miles or something, they're lower. You know, taxis aren't quite as good, but they're up there as well.

Ken Lucci 29:01

So obviously, you know, we've, we've heard some horror stories in the, in the commercial vehicle insurance categories in New York, but obviously you have a solvency, great solvency in the black car fund

Ira goldstein 29:16

Yes, I, yeah.

Ken Lucci 29:17

and that's published every year.

Ira goldstein 29:19

somewhat. I, I, you know, I could tell you in 25 years, I think we've raised the surcharge three times only, and we've actually lowered it three times.

James Blain 29:29

And you said it's only 2.5%, right?

Ira goldstein 29:31

So we, you know, you show me, you, you boys are interest- You're, you're knowledgeable. How many times where, you know, in 25 years you, you know, the, the surcharges stayed, you know, insurance has stayed flat?

James Blain 29:44

Yeah.

Ken Lucci 29:44

so let me ask you a third rail question. Why not offer commercial vehicle insurance?

Ira goldstein 29:49

oh boy. You went third rail? I'm shaking here now, Ken.

James Blain 29:53

you just ended the podcast. We're done.

Ira goldstein 29:55

wh- wh- wh- you know, when I was, when I was younger and I started here, that's something I looked into. It is way too complicated a situation. I've had people call up and say, "Hey, you know, why don't you buy out this company, that company?" You know, listen, we're a not-for-profit. I think we do a great job personally at what we do, and I just wanna stay focused on that.

Ken Lucci 30:17

think about it. You've really defined the, the benefits that most of these guys in most areas of the country, if they're independent drivers, they don't have workers' comp.

Ira goldstein 30:27

Right.

Ken Lucci 30:30

You've, you've built a nice niche, to say the least.

James Blain 30:33

But that tees us up for something really important because, you know, when I think of the motor coach space in New York, and there's a lot of companies kind of in that general area, I don't tend to think of those motor coach drivers or those larger commercial vehicle drivers. I don't see as much of that being IO. And I think the, the question that I would have is, what does that makeup look like, Ira, in terms of, you know, these are traditional chauffeurs, these are the Uber guys. Like, what... Out of that 100,000 that is your drivers, what does that split look like now? And then I'd also be really curious to know what that looked like, like, when you got in. Obviously, there was no Uber back then, but what does that, how's that

Ira goldstein 31:12

You know, if I could back it up, if you're okay, James, to back it up one second. There is, there is not actually a requirement that the drivers be independent contractors. For instance, David Seelinger and Empire, they're a member of The Black Car Fund.

Ken Lucci 31:28

biggest network, big- biggest chauffeur

Ira goldstein 31:30

yeah, some of Rob Alexander's companies are members of The Black Car Fund as well. You know, so they, they love it because we provide all, you know, we provide these rich additional benefits and, it's a surcharge that they can, you know, they can pass along to a, to a... Well, they're, they're charging at a pretty high rate, right? But, uh, you know, but they, that's a pass

James Blain 31:50

But it's pass-through cost, yeah.

Ken Lucci 31:52

a-and yeah, and obv- honestly, it-- when you think about the workers' comp function alone with drivers, for somebody the size of an RMA that's a $100 million company, for there's somebody the size of Empire, which is knocking on 200 million, it's a daunting task to track it. The audits are har- the audits are tough, and then the rates for a driver are different than rates for administrative. So they've gotta love you because your rates have gotta be less than what they would have on their own.

Ira goldstein 32:28

Well, they've at least told me they love me,

Ken Lucci 32:30

That's good. That's good. That's good. I've heard the

Ira goldstein 32:33

really, you know, I have the utmost respect for them. They're, uh, you know, I look at what they've both built up, but yeah, I, we have a great relationship. I think they appreciate The Black Car Fund.

Ken Lucci 32:43

getting back to, getting back to when did-- Uber and Lyft did not volunteer to do this. The black, the black car fund was in place. The, the taxi guys were in it, the black car guys were in it. How did it transition that the, that the Uber drivers and Lyft drivers came in it?

Ira goldstein 33:02

Oh, that's very perceptive, Ken. they, they did not, uh, they... It's a different management team. I do wanna say that upfront. I have a great relationship with them now, okay? But the old management team had a totally different perspective and, uh, they came kicking and screaming. But basically, it gets back to where they met that state definition, where they do 90% of their mon- uh, business on a non-cash basis, and they didn't own the vehicles. So they met, they had to be a member. a little bit of an interesting piece of trivia, when they were approved, I think it was 2018 or 2019 when TNCs were approved outside of New York City, Uber did try to set up their own TNC fund, and, and I,

James Blain 33:48

they wanted to run and manage it completely separate,

Ira goldstein 33:51

want, yes, they didn't want, it's the old management, okay? They did not, they did

James Blain 33:56

a totally different

Ira goldstein 33:57

yeah, they did, yeah They did not want TNCs to be part of the Black Car Fund. And, uh, you know, I felt it was important for the, uh, for the coverage to be consistent statewide for all drivers. It's something I felt strongly about. And, uh, I basically laid out to legislators, I, I brought my actuary in and showed that, uh, the public would've pay, had to pay a lot larger surcharge if the TNCs had their own, uh, Black Car Fund, so to speak, uh, starting. And, uh, and they, they were not successful in that effort,

Ken Lucci 34:31

How long did that take?

Ira goldstein 34:33

Uh, which part? As far as how long to to beat it back? Oh, it was one legislative session.

Ken Lucci 34:39

Well, i-because you-- Listen, you had a working model, there's no question. And at the end of the day, if this management team had been in charge back in the day, I, I think things would've been different. I do. The, the old management team, it was, there was cowboys, there was cowboy city. So I'm glad they actually went along with it, and I'm glad that, you know, it's a, it's, it's now benefited the entire fund, obviously.

James Blain 35:08

Well, if...

Ira goldstein 35:09

to your point, I think the new management fund, they appreciate us. I, you know, the new management team at Uber, I, I have a good relationship with them, you know. they, I think they're very happy about the fund. I think they appreciate the benefits we give the drivers. They cooperate with us, on marketing efforts and things of that nature. So, uh, we collaborate on a lot of different issues. So it's just, it, it's refreshing for me, you know, because I like to get along with my, with my biggest revenue sources, you know, their passengers, so.

Ken Lucci 35:41

You have to.

James Blain 35:42

it brings up another interesting point though, because if, if they qualify, that means any TNC driver has access to the Black Car Fund, if I'm understanding correctly. And it also means that every single trip on every single rideshare app should be contributing that 2.5% into the fund. So like you said, from a revenue standpoint, that's gotta be a huge chunk of that. I, I would be curious, and this is more just 'cause I, I'm, I'm wondering how it went. Was there pushback or did you guys have to go back and recover? Because I'm, I'm guessing when the TNCs came in initially, there was no 2.5 being collected.

Ira goldstein 36:20

Uh, no,

James Blain 36:21

where there was something... Or did they, or did they do that from... So from the very beginning, yeah. So they, they at least, you at least got the full funding there on every trip.

Ira goldstein 36:29

Yes.

James Blain 36:30

Okay.

Ira goldstein 36:31

Unlike, uh, one that we all know now called Empower,

Ken Lucci 36:35

they're fighting with

Ira goldstein 36:36

are the real cowboys, Ken. Okay.

Ken Lucci 36:39

fighting with

Ira goldstein 36:40

yeah. Well, I had my own experience with uh, the CEO a couple years back, so,

Ken Lucci 36:46

They're fighting in DC. Did-didn't they get tossed out of DC?

Ira goldstein 36:49

Yeah. I, I think they just, there's a, uh... If I remember correctly, I think his, his, uh, contempt of court hearing was adjour- was postponed

James Blain 36:59

All right. So, so because, because we've brought them up, I will, I will let either of you take this one, but for those that don't know who you're talking about, what is Empower?

Ira goldstein 37:08

Empower is, uh, in my opinion, is a, uh, for-hire vehicle base that is unlicensed, that does not collect sales tax, does not collect congestion pricing fees in New York, uh, does not collect the Black Car Fund surcharge. and, uh, to this point, have refused to actually be legitimate and licensed in any jurisdiction that I'm aware of where they operate. So

James Blain 37:36

operating more like a app with a TNC? Are they operating traditional model? What do they look

Ira goldstein 37:41

they do a subscription-based

Ken Lucci 37:42

Yes. They charge the drivers and their subscription. And James, I've tried-- I've emailed this guy a half a dozen times, okay? And the-- Listen, I'll just say it flat out. I mean, we don't do much anything with Uber. We've been offered, and we don't. But we still can pick up the phone and call people in every company. They won't, they won't return our call, meaning my call. They won't, they won't talk to anybody. when

James Blain 38:09

are they based out of,

Ken Lucci 38:10

Virginia?

Ira goldstein 38:11

Yeah. Virginia, Maryland, yeah, that

Ken Lucci 38:12

so when, when we started this podcast, remember we had a couple of outlier tech companies out,

James Blain 38:20

oh, we, we had the Russian group, we had all kinds, yeah.

Ken Lucci 38:23

I really wanted these guys to come on and explain their subscription model because they marketed themselves in the beginning as being pro-driver, where, you know, that we are, we're gonna treat you right. And now if you look on Facebook, it is almost opposite. They're fighting with everybody. They're fighting with DC, they're fighting with their drivers. They've gone way up on their subscriptions. You know, it gets me because, uh, they ta- they're taking a play... To me, they're taking a picture, a page out of the, the original Uber playbook, and it didn't, they don't have the money to do it, though.

Ira goldstein 38:59

Yeah. No, I, you know, Dave, you know, I ma- I brought it to regulators' attention at the end of last year, frankly, when, uh, I, I try to engage with drivers when I, when I take, when I take trips, and, uh, a driver told me he thought they were legitimate. And I told him that, "You're not gonna have workers' compensation coverage, God forbid you get in, in an accident." And then, uh, at Thanksgiving dinner when my nephew and niece asked me about them and thought they were licensed and legitimate, uh, that's when I, I, I started to take action. So,

Ken Lucci 39:30

you had to because everybody's paying sales tax. I have an operator, I have an operator that, God forbid, is a, was a little bit behind on their sales tax And the New York State sales tax, you can't negotiate th- with them. They want their money. And so when you talk about somebody that's coming in and they're earning money in New York, but they don't wanna pay the sales tax,

James Blain 39:51

Well, just, just remember, just remember, right? And I'm not drawing any likeness, but even Al Capone was taken down by the IRS, not anyone else, right? So, so the government is going to get their money,

Ken Lucci 40:04

And I hate to tell you, there's no statute of limitation on tax evasion either. Don't ask me how I know. But anyway, so

James Blain 40:11

that I'm implying

Ira goldstein 40:12

of this is, you know, the new administration, uh, the new TLC Commissioner Chair, uh, Midori Valdivia, who I know, and I've had several conversations about this with her. Even during her confirmation hearing at the city council, this came up. And, uh, you know, she was very concerned. And, uh, IDG, who we've mentioned, the New York State Taxi Workers Alliance, during the, the confirmation hearing for the commissioner, brought up and told drivers, "Don't get sucked into this Empower." It's not common when you see everybody in New York City align on the same side, all right? And everybody, it, you know, of course, you know, listen, it's about trying to protect the drivers, the workers, and everyone realizes, you know, there might be some short-term gain because apparently their rates are cheaper if you're not collecting all those taxes and fees I mentioned. Of course you're cheaper, you know, if you're not charging the Port Authority's airport access fees. You know, so, but the city did take action right away, okay? Even before Commissioner Valdivia came in, the Mondame in, in, uh, administration did take action. So they filed for a permanent injunction against them, and, uh, I hope that they're successful. Uh, yeah, and also the Attorney General's office is, is looking into them in New York State.

James Blain 41:33

and you mentioned Port Authority, right? The last ti- I happened to sit on the board with CTA and J, Mike Rose. He got a great group of guys over there. And the last that I heard, they're moving to license plate readers. So pretty soon, I mean, they're going to-- Like we said, they're gonna keep running that clock and reading those plates.

Ira goldstein 41:49

I have a little concern about that. Sometimes, listen, I was on the regulatory side, and a lot of times it's easier to use technology against the legitimate guys sometimes than the illegal. I just came in, I just got back from vacation last Thursday, and you know where they're at, at Kennedy Airport now? A woman was soliciting me with a walkie-talkie if people needed rides. She's got, she's acting as a, as a roving dispatcher, okay? No.

James Blain 42:21

Well, and I'll, I'll tell you, one of the issues that we've had, right? And this is a constant battle Is when we've had successes in enforcement, a- and I will say there's been some successes, one of the things that tends to happen is it's very tough. So what ends up happening is a lot of times they mean well, but they start giving more of a hard time to the legitimate

Ira goldstein 42:43

Absolutely,

James Blain 42:44

because on the, on the actual enforcement side, right, the law enforcement officer's saying, "Well, I'm looking for a sticker or I'm looking for something because I don't know if he's dropping off his sister or his mom or if it's Uber or if it's Lyft." So what ends up happening is it's really hard to deal with and enforce that. And so I think you've made a really good point there in that part of the problem becomes how do you get that to the actual law enforcement side to be able to do it? And it, it's a struggle we've had, and it's something we talk about and work a lot on on that

Ira goldstein 43:15

Yeah. No, I actually had a conversation with my lobbyist about this today. there's a new executive director of the Port Authority, and in some, in some reported, uh, you know, uh, and I know her vaguely. I don't know her well. Uh, but she did mention that the hustling issue is gonna be a priority for her. So I think at, at the time right now we're in the middle of budget negotiations at the state level. I think that all the industries, deliveries, us, taxis, I think everyone's interested in doing something about this. She stated that she's interested in doing something, so I think that we'll all be having meetings with her. but part of it is you have to have... They have to be willing. They, they're, they have their own police force, the Port Authority Police Department. They cooperate, they work with the TLC's police. They do joint operations all the time. So first they have to have the, the desire, the wherewithal to do it. But then there's another component that I think sometimes gets overlooked, and it's that there has to be the, the, they have to have the right laws in place. And, uh, uh, it's too short a... You know, you have to have a printable offense, a fingerprintable offense for this. And then the other part is you also have to have cooperation from the district attorney, because otherwise, if this is gonna be show up, pay a fine, it's a cost of doing business, you

James Blain 44:32

and look, we found with, with CTA and J in our last meeting, they, they brought up that they had a meeting on the insurance regulator side and that they had great success because their thing was, hey, if, if this is an insurance issue, if it's insurance fraud, we're gonna go after it, and that's a good viable angle. The problem becomes at the point where it's a one-person gypsy operator, right? That's not going to trigger a big enough flag for them. They're looking for five car, 10 car. But let me, let me rewind for a second because I know we've, we've thrown a lot of terms out there that for people that aren't familiar with New York might throw them off. Can you give us, and I know this is a loaded question, Ira, but can you explain briefly what is this Port Authority we keep talking about? Who are they? What do they do? That way if you are not from the New York area, you're not familiar with Port Authority, you can at least kinda understand

Ira goldstein 45:23

Sure. So it's, it's the Port Authority of New York and New Jersey. They, they are authority that was formed by law in a, in a, in a joint agreement, I believe many years ago, between New York and New Jersey. they have a situation where, one appoints the chair, one appoints the executive director. they both have, uh, I don't know the exact composition, but they both appoint a certain number of members to the board, and they have control of LaGuardia, Kennedy Airport, Newark Airport, uh, the bus terminal in Manhattan, and I also believe the, uh, the smaller airport up in, uh, in Westchester County as well, I believe is under,

Ken Lucci 46:04

Teterboro, Teterboro is under it.

Ira goldstein 46:06

Is it also? I'm not sure. It

James Blain 46:07

Yeah, I'm not positive on that one, but I believe they, they might fall under

Ken Lucci 46:11

But it's just like every, everybody else has, has an airport authority. so what i- what intrigues me about all this is I was speaking in front of a 20 group down in New Orleans, and everybody was complaining about illegal operators. And I said, "Listen, you know, the problem, what, what, however they become legal, illegal operators, whether it's a Facebook group, somebody's neighbor is soliciting to do rides, whether it's somebody off-book from

James Blain 46:39

there's a lot of rideshare guys that are tossing out cards and numbers, yeah.

Ken Lucci 46:43

And the comment they made wa- I said, "You know, they're not insured. They're not insured when, for commercial use. It's going to become a problem where the com- the insurance company, if there is a reported accident, they're gonna say, 'We're not covering that.'" And the comment was made, "Well, they don't care." I said, "I don't agree. I don't think they know." I think that the consu- we need to make sure that every news outlet knows the difference. That if, if you're on app, if you're on app with one of the legitimate app companies, you're covered with insurance. But if you call that driver or your neighbor uses his private car, they're not covered under, under commercial livery

Ira goldstein 47:27

Yeah.

James Blain 47:28

Well, I think TNCs have made that more confusing, right? Because right now, I mean, look, when I was a kid and the fr- internet first came out, we didn't talk to strangers. Now I summon one from the internet to come and get me and take me. I would say, uh, if you took my 21-year-old daughter and you said, "Hey, you know, here, what's the difference between this and this?" She's gonna go, "I don't know. It's not on an app?" they're they're not gonna have any clue.

Ken Lucci 47:51

No, you're right, but they've gotta be educated because the... And e- even the TNCs want to educate people that if, if, if your driver, if the driver solicits you to do a private ride, you're not covered.

Ira goldstein 48:06

Yeah. And I will tell you, I mentioned before I just got back from vacation last week. Delta actually made an announcement, when we-- when the plane started to come into land, uh, about warning against illegal hustlers. And they even made reference that even if the person trying to solicit you speaks your, your native language, that doesn't mean that they're licensed and legitimate. So, you know, uh, if... Yeah, so I give Delta credit. I don't know if that was done at the request of the Port Authority. I haven't had time to figure that out, but I give them credit for making that announcement, so.

Ken Lucci 48:40

Okay, now we need to get to some fun subjects, James, and I, I'm gonna talk

James Blain 48:44

Hockey!

Ken Lucci 48:45

No. I'm gonna talk about something that I'm not supposed to talk about anymore.

James Blain 48:50

Oh, boy. Here we go. Let's party.

Ken Lucci 48:53

autonomous vehicles.

James Blain 48:54

Yeah, this is a good... Well, but, but Ira's in a very unique position with autonomous vehicles.

Ken Lucci 49:00

two

James Blain 49:01

Correct. Yeah. Yeah. So, so I think that, that's a great tee off for us to talk to him about what autonomous vehicles mean for the Black Car Fund, but also what they mean for the workforce and what they mean for New York, 'cause that's a completely

Ken Lucci 49:16

w- look, I hear, I hear-- So, so in China, there was a particular manufacturer that was s- was, by the way, they, they have permits to test in California. China took them off the road. This, I'm not gonna say the manufacturer, but they took the

James Blain 49:34

You should.

Ira goldstein 49:36

recently. They,

Ken Lucci 49:37

Yeah. Uh, so was I, because it was a

Ira goldstein 49:40

Surprised, yeah.

Ken Lucci 49:41

Yeah. It was a brand that's in Mexico. It's a b- brand that's in Canada. So a couple things.

James Blain 49:46

Just say it, Ken. just just put it out there.

Ken Lucci 49:48

no, it might be a retained client at some point, James, for

James Blain 49:51

Oh, boy. Oh, boy. Personal interest first.

Ken Lucci 49:55

uh, they're not a client

James Blain 49:57

I'm giving you a hard

Ira goldstein 49:58

could go Google it.

Ken Lucci 49:59

Right. You can't. So when do you think realistically, uh, 'cause look, New York is a, there i- there, there's no place in the world like New York. I mean, I'm just trying to migrate

James Blain 50:11

And there's nowhere else they drive like they do in New York, right? Like my,

Ken Lucci 50:14

mean, there,

James Blain 50:15

there's a switch that has to go on in my head to drive in New York.

Ken Lucci 50:18

scooters all over the place. There's scooter lanes, there's pedestrian lanes. In your mind, when do you think AVs are going to be approved in New York?

James Blain 50:29

You mean like Manhattan, like downtown New York? Yeah.

Ira goldstein 50:32

Yeah. I mean, listen, uh, I could give you a ballpark figure. I don't, I don't think there's anyone alive that knows the answer to that right now, because of what you said. First of all, I think they're, New York City, you, like you, you referenced, you have very aggressive pedestrians. You got these scooters that, in my opinion, are a menace, okay? Um,

Ken Lucci 50:54

They, because they don't follow the lights. There's lights

James Blain 50:57

Lights, they don't give, they don't give any F's,

Ken Lucci 51:00

No, they don't.

James Blain 51:02

If you hit,

Ira goldstein 51:03

the Department of Transportation published rules today that they're gonna give them an exception with bikes that they can, like, yeah, with-- I don't wanna get into that. They just published some proposed rules that they're gonna allow them not to follow the, the

James Blain 51:15

so instead of a, so instead of a bike lane, we're just gonna give them a free pass to roam and do

Ken Lucci 51:19

I'm try-- I'm walking across 36th to get to 9th, and I've got my luggage behind me, and a scooter hit my luggage.

Ira goldstein 51:25

Yeah.

Ken Lucci 51:26

And I,

James Blain 51:26

lucky they didn't hit you.

Ken Lucci 51:28

I know. Well, I was fast enough this morning. I had my Dunkin' Donuts. So when

Ira goldstein 51:32

listen, I think, you know, I, my opinion is I think New York City, uh, you know, will be amongst the last, okay, in the country where they will be approved to operate as full AV vehicles. Right now, you know, Waymo had that, uh, permit that expired, uh, the end of March to do the, uh, to test out their, the, uh, or the, uh, the autonomous vehicle function. They're still driving around the city mapping things out, uh, but they do have a driver. There are six or eight cars.

James Blain 52:06

Well, and they're down in Philly now too.

Ira goldstein 52:08

yeah. You know, but I think, you know, to where they really are out there, uh, you know, I think it could be 10 years away,

Ken Lucci 52:18

Yeah. But I think you're right. It's gonna, regardless of how many years, it's gonna be one of the last

Ira goldstein 52:24

I think so. And also, the other component of that is that you have such a, it, it represents, it would represent such a huge worker, driver displacement that, that doesn't exist anywhere else. I mean, you know, I, I've read you have a, there's a couple hundred thousand TNC drivers in California, but I think a lot of them are also part-time. New York, because as we were talking about the regulatory and there's a certain, you know, there's a higher, uh, barrier to entry, with the commercial, uh, the commercial liability insurance, you know, the drug testing, the licensing requirements that aren't, I don't, I'm not aware of any other city that has that. you know- It's, it's gonna be a huge thing. And that's my biggest issue, you know, is the worker displacement. and then like you mentioned, there's the safety component. And, you know, I don't think, you know, Waymo, you know, and they reported instances. I don't think they're, like, good actors in this whole situation. You know, when they had that stoppage in San Francisco, they had a hearing in front of an administrative law judge, and they refused to turn over the information. They said it was proprietary information. They're in a lawsuit with Santa Monica, okay? They're, they're a menace with the noise and the sound and the lights in a neighborhood, and they're in a lawsuit over there. You know? So I don't think they're good, I don't think they're good corporate partners.

Ken Lucci 53:43

they're not. And, and I'm just gonna say it flat out, they won't come on the podcast, so we're not gonna be nice to them, okay? We're gonna be nice to, to Elon 'cause we like Elon. We want him to--

James Blain 53:53

a little more fast and

Ken Lucci 53:57

We want Elon to come on the podcast,

James Blain 54:00

We do. We do want Elon on the podcast. But, but I

Ira goldstein 54:03

Hey, if you could get Elon, God bless, kudos. But he, you

Ken Lucci 54:07

if I-- Ira, if I can get Elon, okay, that's almost as good as maybe selling one of the big global networks. I'm gonna retire after

Ira goldstein 54:15

Yeah, but you know, he has the most dangerous business model Buy the car, and when you're not using it, you have to put it out and let it work as, as a for-hire vehicle, as a taxi." And no--

James Blain 54:26

Yeah, that's the bigger

Ira goldstein 54:28

the same c- safety components, frankly, that Lyft, that Waymo has.

Ken Lucci 54:32

I talked to somebody about that because, a-and James, don't nerd out The bottom line with Tesla is he uses learned camera, camera learning, and every ca- every Tesla has a camera, and he believes that the camera alone and AI can do the job that both camera and LIDAR can.

James Blain 54:53

But Tesla's not his baby, right? His baby is becoming a multi-planetary species in the development of AGI, okay? And I'm not gonna nerd out, right? That's the whole statement. We're done.

Ken Lucci 55:07

Pl-p-p-please don't. We only have five minutes

James Blain 55:09

but all he, all, all he cares about is getting a colony established on Mars and the development and pushing of AI. If you watch the interviews, he didn't think Tesla was gonna work. He just thought it was cool. He didn't found Tesla, he bought it. And

Ken Lucci 55:24

All right. Okay.

James Blain 55:25

you've gotta really look at that. Now, to the point you made earlier about Waymo, I will tell you, Waymo has been the slowest in terms of adoption. They've been the slowest in terms of trying to take steps. They are just now taking larger strides. I would like, and, and I think it's important as we kinda wrap it up, I think it's more important to talk about, Ira, what does it look like in terms of the retirement side? What does it look like in terms of who we actually see getting displaced? And is this something that we see being the same type of shift that we saw when TNC and Rideshare came? Or how are you guys at The Black Car Fund looking at and talking about this

Ira goldstein 56:09

Yeah. Well, I think that's the $64,000 question right now. I don't know if you're old enough for that reference, James. Ken, you're with me, so,

James Blain 56:16

My grandma explained it to me. No, I'm just kidding. I'm kidding.

Ira goldstein 56:19

you know, so I

Ken Lucci 56:20

James is just a, James is just a young punk. He proves it every, every Friday he proves it.

Ira goldstein 56:25

you know, so listen, that's, I think that, uh, you know, from our position, we're not only looking, we try not to only look out for the drivers, but for the, all the bases. I got 650 members. So I think, and I, you know, and I, I can't tell you I've totally thought this out, but I think it's the licenses themselves that have to have the value. And you, and you either somehow, like it's the driver who has a vehicle license, that has to have a value to it, okay? So this driver has his vehicle license. You don't go and allow a Waymo or any other AV company to go operate in addition, okay, to existing licenses. You know, maybe, and I don't hold, you know, but maybe have Waymo ask to lease that license from the driver, okay? And the same thing for bases, okay? Where they don't, you don't give them exclusivities. It's not a monopoly. There'll be more than one AV company, so what is it, oligopoly? Okay. where you don't allow two or three companies to control the whole market.

Ken Lucci 57:31

What you're saying is they should be going through and have some sort of an economic arrangement with the existing base stations and potentially drivers.

Ira goldstein 57:41

I think in an ideal world, that's where it has to be at some point.

Ken Lucci 57:44

I don't disagree with you, and I-- From, from, from seeing so many livery cars on the road and so many yellow car- yellow cabs on the road in New York, these drivers also, they fulfill a service for senior citizens, for taking the luggage out, for you,

Ira goldstein 58:01

that was my next step, Ken. Yeah.

Ken Lucci 58:03

Yeah, you name it. So it's not, it's not a direct replacement, so to speak. but I, I, I, I agree with you it's gonna be take some time. But one final thing I wanna fit in, the flying helicopter,

Ira goldstein 58:18

Joby?

Ken Lucci 58:21

What do you think about that?

Ira goldstein 58:23

I mean, the first thing when I-- Yeah, I've heard about them before the recent demonstration here in New York. Jetsons, right? Uh, it's George Jetson running

James Blain 58:31

They had a Chinook on the Pan Am building back in the day, and you used to be able to take the Chinook until they had the accident, and they had parts of the helicopter falling off the Pan Am building. I mean,

Ira goldstein 58:41

Oh, wow, I didn't know

Ken Lucci 58:42

of all,

Ira goldstein 58:42

I didn't remember that.

Ken Lucci 58:44

but they've been... Now, correct me if I'm wrong. They, they were issued a license to operate them commercially.

Ira goldstein 58:50

believe

James Blain 58:50

are they gonna fly him out of?

Ira goldstein 58:51

Uh, I think they're talking about from the west side, there's a heliport to JFK, I think is what they're talking about initially. I believe their CEO has said that they aspire to costing as much as an Uber ride. you gotta look at that a little bit, uh, with a je ne sais quoi. I mean, you know, Uber had some dirt cheap rates when they first came into the market, too. And then in New York there, you know, it's the Blackhawk funds, uh, you know, benefit, don't get me wrong, but, they've certainly increased their rates once they got everyone kind of hooked on everything, you

James Blain 59:24

and there's been various services that have, they've taken helicopters into Manhattan, and like I said, even the Pan Am building was originally built, I believe, with a helipad on each side until they had the accident.

Ken Lucci 59:33

but if you think about it, Ira, there's a place for it to go from downtown to the airports. I question how they're gonna keep track of all of this air traffic.

Ira goldstein 59:46

Yeah, I can. That's-- Geez, you know, this isn't like cars on a road, man, you know.

Ken Lucci 59:52

Yeah,

Ira goldstein 59:53

you've had some, you know, currently, you know, we all know there's been reported a- incidents at, at airports, you

James Blain 1:00:00

the

Ira goldstein 1:00:00

and these guys are gonna be running around like the Jetsons. You know, I'm not getting in one anym- anytime soon,

Ken Lucci 1:00:06

No. A- and, and, and, uh, the next thing is they'll wanna do service out to the Hamptons, which, which is fine,

Ira goldstein 1:00:13

Be a great market.

Ken Lucci 1:00:14

100%. And I would like to see the, the, the Hampton Jitney operate the helicopters, because the Hampton Jitney's quite the company. They're quite a group. Well, Ira, this has been unbelievable to have you on. We're gonna have to have you on again, and m- maybe we'll have you and Matt on at the same

Ira goldstein 1:00:32

right. Hey, listen, guys, you know, I'll be hon- yeah, I was a little nervous. You know, this is only my second podcast, but I had fun with you guys. You're

Ken Lucci 1:00:40

Ira, listen, Ira, I will say, if you ever wanna come on as a guest host and ha- and have a New York-based podcast, and you have your own guest, please feel free. Our a- our airwaves are your airwaves.

Ira goldstein 1:00:56

Well, thank you. You're both gentlemen, and like I said, I-- Listen, I'm smiling. I really had a good time with you guys

James Blain 1:01:02

first of all, thank you so much, Ira. I, I will say, like we started in the beginning, you guys have something that no one else has, and I think we could probably take two or three more episodes and talk about that because I genuinely think it could be a model for others, and I think it's, it's really great what you guys do for everyone out there, so thank you for that. For everybody listening, please like, subscribe, watch, and let us know what you think. Drop comments, give us likes, show us some love, and we will see you guys again next week on

Ken Lucci 1:01:32

If I make it out of, if I make it out of New York City...

1:01:36

Thank you for listening to the ground transportation podcast. If you enjoyed this episode, please remember to subscribe to the show on apple, Spotify, YouTube, or wherever you get your podcasts. For more information about PAX training and to contact James, go to PAX training.com. And for more information about driving transactions and to contact Ken, Go to driving transactions.com. We'll see you next time on the ground transportation podcast.