SPEAKER_03 0:00

Chief Henry Standingburg saw that potentially our way of life could be gone. So that's where the idea to carve this mountain and create an organization that had education, that proactively did something to no matter what happened to our culture, there will always be a place for the world to go to learn about the Native American culture. And so that's where the idea was born.

SPEAKER_01 0:31

You're listening to the Ground Transportation Podcast with Ken Lucci of Driving Transactions and James Blaine of PAX Training. Learn how you can build a thriving transportation business with real profits, three peak clients, and enterprise value. And now for your hosts, Ken and James.

SPEAKER_02 0:49

Hello there, everybody, and welcome back to another exciting episode of the Ground Down Station podcast. Unfortunately, today I do not have my co-host Ken, but I am extremely excited about today's episode. So I want to kind of tee it up a little bit because I recently took a trip up to South Dakota. And I went there really more because it was my mother-in-law's dream to see Mount Rushmore. And we went up, we had a wonderful time, but there was something out there that kind of reached out and grabbed me. And I have not stopped thinking about it since I've gotten home. And that is the Crazy Horse Memorial. For those that don't know, the Crazy Horse Memorial is so much more than a mountain carving. It is going to be school, education. There's going to be so much there. And I am very, very lucky today that to help me tell the story of it and share that with you guys, I have Whitney Rancounter II. He is the CEO of the Crazy Horse Memorial. He is part of the Crow Creek Sioux Tribe. I can't thank you enough for coming on the podcast.

SPEAKER_03 1:51

Yeah, my pleasure, James. Thank you for reaching out and I look forward to our discussion today.

SPEAKER_02 1:56

I'm really excited because I will share with you growing up, this isn't something that we were taught in school, right? Nobody in school ever said, you know, we have Mount Rushmore, you know, you have the four presidents. Oh, and by the way, just literally a 25-minute drive around the corner, if that, there is another carving that is celebrating Native American history. When I found that out, when I saw the scale, that to me was almost more impressive than Mount Rushmore, because I learned that it's still a work in progress and it's something that's still to this day actively being built. Can you kind of tell us a bit about the roots of the project, where it started, kind of how it all begins?

SPEAKER_03 2:39

So Chief Henry Standing Bear is uh first cousin of Crazy Horse, who was a war leader, a young war leader amongst our people. Crazy horse went through a challenging childhood. He had curly hair, kind of a different color skin than most of the Lakota boys that he was amongst. So because he was picked on and bullied and made fun of at a young age, he spent more time with elders. He studied, spent more time in nature. He became mature at such a young age. And the bottom line is eventually when gold was discovered in the Black Hills, which are the homelands of the Lakota people, and the creation story, gathering of sacred sites and medicines, and just so much of a connection to the homelands of the Black Hills. When that was protected in the 1851 and 1868 Fort Laramie treaties, the government literally said, we are protecting this and preserving it for the Lakota, the Great Sioux Nation, until eventually Custer found gold in the Black Hills and others that were prospecting, and then they could not protect it and preserve it any longer, meaning the government. So they passed the Black Hills Act, which took away basically without a court uh hearing and just said, We're taking the Black Hills, but we're gonna in exchange, we're giving you all this money, and we're but you have to go to a reservation. For sale almost most. Yeah, exactly. Okay, and so Custer was pushing the Lakota people, anyone that resisted, pushing them to the reservations to adhere to the government's policy. And because of that, a lot of the women and children that were slow to move to the reservation, a lot of them would have been killed during that, you know, during the transition if they weren't adhering to that. They were considered to be hostile and resisted. And so Crazy Horse knew and found out that Custer, Lieutenant Colonel Custer and the 7th Cavalry were going to be pushing the women and children onto the reservation. And he knew many of them would perish if he didn't do something to protect the women and children. So now you have this young warrior who was picked on himself and made fun of is a young boy. Yeah. Now grew up into someone that led this Battle of Greasy Grass, Battle of Little Bighorn. And we just had the 150th anniversary, June 25, 1876. This year is the 150th anniversary of that victory at the Battle of Greasy Grass. So the fact that Crazy Horse led the Lakfota people with the Northern Cheyenne and the Rappahoo, our allies, and defeated Lieutenant Colonel Custer, George Ramshon Custer in the 7th Cavalry, Chief Henry Standing Bear knew that he would be the one that he would like to honor and recognize, but also to utilize a mountain carving in his honor to represent the over 570 federally recognized tribes that exist in our country. And so that is why the mountain carving is here, because Chief Henry Standing Bear wanted the world to know. And there's more about that, but that's kind of the essence to start.

SPEAKER_02 5:55

Help me understand because while we were there, we learned a lot about the needles. I've seen similar rock formations in other places, but you guys in the Black Hills have these really unique formations that are called the needles and the way things are set up. I guess at one point they had talked about they were wanting to carve those into people and then Rushmore site. All of this seems to happen in that same time period, from what I understand, the early 40s, the late 30s. At what point does the Crazy Horse Memorial when is it born? Is this something that comes directly from Chief Henry Standing Bear, or is this something that the tribe came together? Because we're talking something that is spanned. Well, I think we're into our third lifetime now already, because you have the grandsons of the original sculptor up there working on it.

SPEAKER_03 6:46

Yeah, so Chief Henry Standing Bear, he was taken against his will, against his parents and his grandparents, the tribe, the government took many children away from their homes and sent them, a lot of them to Carlisle Indian School in Pennsylvania to basically be Americanized. To uh America, the government wanted to create, as many of us that study history, they wanted to create a melting pot so that all other languages other than English and they wanted to really melt every everyone into speaking in English, being American, and and obviously the tribes were kind of at the forefront of that. And so the government went through the boarding school era where they wanted to take the children from the reservations and send them to the boarding school where they would learn to read and write in English and be Americanized, if you will. And the adage was kill the Indian and save the man. And so Chief Henry Staning Bear was, as he was growing up and living at this, led by the Department of Interior, the Bureau of Indian Affairs was in the Department of Interior, the War Department, and being basically Americanized, he was afraid, in essence, that oh my goodness, look at what's happening to us. And he wanted, he vowed to always keep his culture, his identity, and to save that. So he's as a young boy, he had that mentality that no matter what, he learned English, learned to read and write, he was always going to hold on to his culture. So as a young boy, he already was a visionary. And so, but he was afraid. He's like, if the government is successful at what they're doing, which eventually the government actually, the policy of the government, there's a termination era where they wanted to get rid of all the tribes, despite the treaties that they entered into when the land was taken. And so Henry Standing Bear was kind of in a desperate time. And so he formed, after he was at finished at Carlisle Indian School, as he came back to South Dakota amongst his people, he formed Crazy Horse Memorial Association years before the first blast at Crazy Horse Memorial. And so he got together with his family. He actually communicated with his relatives who are our Crazy Horse's relatives, and he talked about this idea he had that after Mal Rushmore was created, he wanted to establish a mountain carving to honor his first cousin, Crazy Horse. And in our way, we don't ask people to honor us. Our traditional way, it's up to our relatives and our family members to make that decision. So Chief Henry Standing Bear made that decision along with the association, other elders, other relatives that came together to have this discussion during a desperate time. Because during these times of the reservation, it was against the law for our people, our men, to go hunt. And that was our traditional way to sustain our families and take care of our families. So by the government's law, that we had to stay on the reservation and just wait for rations and support to be sent to us as opposed to just on our own getting up and going to hunt to provide for our families. So this was a desperate time for our people. Chief Henry Standingburg saw that potentially our way of life could be gone. So that's where the idea to carve this mountain and create an organization that had education, that proactively did something to no matter what happened to our culture, there will always be a place for the world to go to learn about the Native American culture. And so that's where the idea was born.

SPEAKER_02 10:33

I gotta tell you, when you get there, the scale of it, to have that kind of vision, to be able to see that many years in the future, it's very interesting because you draw these parallels. You know, you have Crazy Horse who is a little different, you know, he grows up different, he spends more time with the elders. I feel like a lot of times life prepares you for where it's going to take you. And it's very interesting to me the two parallels in that you have Crazy Horse who grows up the way he does, Chief Henry Standing Bear, who goes through their education system, he learns that. I think a lot of people, especially those that have ever had immigrants or family, even those that have moved to a new place, it can be one of those things where even though they're going somewhere new, they want to keep that culture. They want to keep where they came from. I think what makes this story unique and a bit different is I feel like for the Native people in that area, it's almost the reverse. The world is changing around them, right? The country is changing around them, and they have their culture, but they're still trying to hold on to it. And it strikes me when you mentioned the hunt, because what I learned when I was up there in South Dakota is that the buffalo there is a massive way of life. Any time that there was a hunt for a buffalo, literally nothing was wasted. And if I understand correctly, the caves there are almost shaped like the buffalo. And there's this story that you come from the buffalo. So help me understand a little bit. I think that the ability not to hunt, as we think of that today in modern life, you have a lot of people that hunt for fun, but I don't know that I could even come close to explaining it. Seems like that to your people would be a massive part of their way of life, and not being able to do that would go beyond just, hey, we're gonna hunt for food, right?

SPEAKER_03 12:27

Yeah, so there was there's stories, and and as a historian, and keep in mind, I grew up on a reservation in South Dakota, one of the nine reservations, and they're all what is known as the Great Sioux Nation, but where you have different dialects Lakota, Dakota, Nakuta, the Al D and then Al D and N dialects, which we're all one tribe, but we just have a different language. If you go to Europe and you go amongst some of the countries, you know, you have one group of people, but they have different dialects. So, well, we're all one tribe. I grew up not knowing why I was on a reservation and why there was a border town next to us where there was no Native Americans there, and what was this about, and why was there no relationships formed? Well, I as I went to college and I studied Native American history and American history, I realized that most people in our country do not learn about the facts of what happened in our country, what Chief Henry Standing Bear learned and what he experienced, and even years before that, with why the treaties amongst the tribes were formed, and rarely any of them were ever upheld and enforced. But the government just decided to say I agree to the tribe on a treaty to establish peace, so we no longer have to eliminate other people. And then, in essence, the government agreed to establish these treaties to establish peace, but also in essence basically made a decision to lease the land from the tribes. That's why the treaties were were signed. Right. But in essence, agreed until the grass is green and the river flows, which really's in for eternity. And so they will provide health care, education, rations, you know, and other benefits to as long as the tribes would live on a reservation and stay there and not hunt any longer. So most Americans never were taught that. And I believe people do better when they know better. The majority of people, when they have those facts and that information, it kind of opens up and gives them a little more compassion to understand, okay, that's why this is so confusing and difficult to understand. But when you get the facts and you learn the history, you know, that's when it helps us to have a better understanding. So I was one of the few that really grew up on the reservation and now live half my life off the reservation. But technically, I feel like I'm still living on our homelands in the Black Hills. I live in Rapid City, South Dakota, the foothills of the Black Hills. I still feel like I'm living amongst where my ancestors lived. And so, in essence, it's it's such a layers of understanding and perspectives and perception. So, nonetheless, the big picture is there was 30 to 60 million bison that once roamed the plains. Some of the first settlers said when they came through, they would have to stop and wait for eight days for one bison herd to pass. 80,000 bison in one herd. And so, I mean, they talked about the ground rumbling, and so our people who hunted the bison, and as you may mention, when they hunted the bison, or as we say, Tatanka, our Deo Yate in our language, the Buffalo Nation, we use every part of the buffalo for something food, clothing, shelter, fuel. And uh, so we had 30 to 60 million, so we had enough to sustain our lives, you know, in perpetuity, really, with that much buffalo. And so the government, when they started to make the changes and overtook the land, they saw that uh we were sustained by the buffalo. So that's when they unleashed their, they would send train, they built the railroads, and they people would be able to just buy a hunt and just ride on trains through the through the plains and shoot the buffalo from the trains, it was encouraged. And uh the you'd see all these uh carcasses alongside uh the plains, and that's really that was part of the intempt to create a melting pot in our country that if you eliminate the buffalo, you'd you'd be able to control the population of the the native people. And so when we were by law had to move to the reservation, obviously not having the buffalo any longer, there was less than 1,000 buffalo remaining in the late 1800s. And uh 50 million of indigenous people in our country in the late 1800s, it was down to about 600,000. Wow, and so you take a look at that, and I know that's those are the facts that we're not taught. But when we learn and understand those, and you kind of see what took place in our in our history, I think it has to also be done in a way that we have to just present the facts and let people process that how they do. And so for me, when I first learned of those facts, I was angry. But then as time went on, I realized and I learned from my ancestors and my grandparents and my mother and others that if you have hatred and anger and you carry that in your heart, it will consume you. And so I've learned to say, okay, I can't control what happened in the past, neither can people living in these cities and around me or in the city that I attended my college. But that lit a fire under me to not give up when I went to college and to get educated and to help teach and do something with my life to make an impact on this world. And so I want to be able to inspire other people also to do the same and to learn those facts and that history because I believe people do better when they know better. So that's kind of where, in essence, the evolution of what happened to our ancestors and the buffalo and how that connected to Chief Henry Standing Bear, who also wanted to do something about it and create something so that people will learn these facts and the history, and that would make an impact on people as they visited Crazy Horse Memorial.

SPEAKER_02 19:10

Well, I think that's a beautiful way to bring us, and I don't want to take the quote, I want you to share the quote. But Chief Henry Standing Bear has this beautiful quote talking about heroes. I'd love for you to be able to share the quote that Chief Henry Standing Bear had on the heroes because I think it sums up a big reason for the memorial.

SPEAKER_03 19:32

Yeah, absolutely. So originally, Chief Henry Standing Bear has Crazy Horse Memorial Association, a nonprofit before nonprofits existed. You know, he basically wanted to create an organization that worked together, that brought resources together to carve the mountain, to build a university, a training, medical training facility along with a museum, you know, and really what Crazy Wars Memorial has evolved into today. However, in those days, Chief Understanding Bear and the Crazy Horse Memorial Association wanted originally all Native American mountain carvers, all Native American staff. But what I just shared with you helps you to understand, we were not in a position. We were living on the reservations by law, had to stay there, could not hunt. So we were trying to survive. We did not have the education and the expertise to carve a mountain or to build a university or or a facility to educate the world. We just did not have the resources. Our people, our relatives were struggling in those years. So Chief Henry Standingbird, as he was getting older, realized, oh my goodness, that's a big hurdle for me to try to cross. So he was trying to figure out the next move once he realized that that was not going to come to fruition, that people weren't willing to come to work for free and didn't have the resources. So he then saw an article potentially in Rapid City Journal, but it was across the nation about Korchak Jokovsky, who won a pri uh first prize in the World's Fair competition as a sculptor for Patoreski, one of his sculptors, he he created in in Connecticut. And he saw that he won this prize. He also he realized Korchak was a mountain carver or a sculptor because he he was at Mount Rushmore in his early years, but didn't it did work out? So he was, you know, basically excused from Mount Rushmore. He and Borglum really had towering personalities and it just didn't work out. He basically excused Korchak. So Korchak went back to Connecticut, and so when he saw that he won this prize, it sparked something for Chief Henry Standing Bear and said, Okay, I can't find people amongst my people to do this. Maybe if I write to this sculptor and intrigue him and then share a letter with him. So in that letter, one of the lines that he wrote was that I would like the white man who he realized that there feel like he feel like he understood that the reasons for Mount Rushmore was to highlight and showcase the heroes of our country after the Declaration of Independence. So he said, Well, I want the white man to know that the red man also has great heroes. And so he wanted to highlight not only Crazy Horse, his first cousin, who was a hero, who was a war leader, but also there are others amongst Chief Joseph, Sitting Bull, Geronimo. You can go down the line of a lot of our leaders who protected their people. Obviously, heroes is a different mindset amongst our people because we don't showcase and highlight our people in the sense. That the Western civilization does. But in essence, he just wanted that reputed representation to be relevant in our country. And so the thing about Korchak, he was an orphan. He was a Polish orphan. And he was adopted by an Irish family. And he was basically, they made him work and then they punished him and made him sleep in an attic with no windows. Oh, geez. And so he became kind of a delinquent, a young delinquent, because he was acting out, because how he was treated in a rough orphan. Absolutely. And so when he got this letter, something kind of spoke to him. He's like, wait a minute, let me look into this. He didn't answer right away. Yeah. But Chief Henry Standingware was persistent. So there became a crossroads that eventually Korchak went to war, he was a veteran. And then when he returned, he still had that letter and it was still speaking to him. And he had an opportunity to sculpt war heroes in Europe.

SPEAKER_00 23:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 23:39

Or maybe let's look at this letter and respond to Chief Henry Standingware. He's so persistent. Let's see what he's looking at. So he traveled to South Dakota eventually and he researched and he saw how the Native people were living on the reservations and he learned about what happened with the history I just shared with you.

SPEAKER_00 23:54

Right.

SPEAKER_03 23:54

And then because of how he was treated, he had a heart for the underdog. He had a heart for the less fortunate. And he learned about the promises that the government made to our people and never kept those promises. And so that's what really drew him to dedicate the rest of his life. And he connected with our people to say, I would like to be one white man who doesn't break his promises to the Native people and to right some of the wrongs that happened to these people because of how I was treated in this country growing up. And so that's really what spoke to him, and that's what he dedicated the rest of his life to do was to carve this movie. Yep. So I think, in essence, as as Crazy Horse Memorial Association, the family members, the Chief Henry Standing Bear, and others were talking. We're like, we as native people will sometimes find parallels and find things that connect and say, Oh my goodness, you were born shortly, you know, within hours after Crazy Horse passed away. So this is definitely meant to be, whether that's a fact or not, obviously it doesn't add to anything. But then it's just kind of cease trying to find connections. But nonetheless, the big picture is Korchak made a decision to pursue this and dedicate his life to this without any money, no government money, no other funding. So early on, Ruth Ross, Korchak's wife, another founder, another person dedicated to helping build this up. In the early years, there are stories of she had to walk between Custer and Rapid City and pick up bottles alongside the road just to get eggs and milk for the kids. You know, and she went house to house asking for donations to help sustain the work and build this up. And, you know, it was it was tough going. So a family truly having 10 children, dedicating their lives to this mission, this dream, this vision that Chief Henry Staning Bear came up with and aligned with Korchak and Ruth and others. You know, it's a story that in essence, I think as people learn about what happened and the intention, and you learn about the facts and what took place throughout history, you know, I think in essence you kind of have a heart to say, okay, they set out to do something and make a difference in this world of in a world where there's not a lot of Native American representation and to try to make an impact to inspire others to want to do better. So it's an interesting history, and I think when more people learn about it, it makes an impact.

SPEAKER_02 26:15

One of the things when I was learning about the memorial, when he first comes to a memorial, I want to say it was like $174, is what he had. He basically had like $174 a Jeep and some supplies. And my normal co-host Ken is a financial analyst and an MA expert, so I'm sure he would double check my math here. But when I converted that into today's money, it's like $2,500, right? And I don't know about you, I'm roughly 40. And from what I understand, that's about the age he was when he went out there. So I think to myself, you know, imagine showing up at the base of a mountain, and what I'm guessing in that time it was probably an old World War II Jeep, right? So you've got this old Jeep that you're pulling up, you've got $2,500 in your pocket, and your goal is to carve an entire mountain. But I feel that standing there looking at it, where do you even start on a project? Just standing there at that base. And I think what really strikes me as a business owner is in business and everything. And I'm sure you guys even run into it doing the finances. You try to think a couple years at a time, right? You try to think, you know, five months, ten months. But the planning on this to be able to stand at the base of a mountain, he's got to be thinking, and him and I just envision him and Chief Henry Stanning Bear standing there trying to think in lifetimes. It's an incredible scale. What does that look like as we kind of start moving towards today? Because there was no funding, right? The $175 that he had, that was basically it. It's not like he was commissioned and he was getting a paycheck and things like that, is it?

SPEAKER_03 29:01

Yeah, correct. I can't verify factually how much money he had, but if you convert it in the undertaking and the travels, how many chips he went back and forth initially to get all his belongings, he basically didn't have any money or resources. And so it's like, what do we do? Well, as I made mentioned before, Ruth Ross eventually who became his wife and they had 10 children, you know, she was kind of on her side of things, was trying to fundraise. And Ruth had an interesting motto and philosophy that we still carry on today, make a friend first. And that folks who visit the memorial, whether they give one dollar or or a lot of money, that she and the others kind of the philosophy was to treat everyone with kindness and respect and appreciation. We still carry that on today because we understand that when folks invest into our organization and into the project, they choose. So when people give to Casey Horse Memorial, they select either the mountain carving, the university, the museum, or for operations. So as a nonprofit 501c3 charity, we do audits every year. We have to honor what the public and the guests want to where they want to place their funds. And we express that's what we're doing, that's what our mission and our vision is, and that's what they support. So we have to honor that and maintain that to maintain our our nonprofit status and just as a general, as a humanitarian project, to maintain that trust, to make sure that we're still following through with what we say we're doing. But early on, after what I'm mentioned, they did whatever they could. So they eventually, the Trokovski family, to sustain the operations and to help build the facilities. I mean, a lot of it was just survival in the early years. There wasn't a lot of activity on the mountain carving because they didn't have the resources. And so they did eventually start a lumber mill and a milk parlor to sustain operations, to build the facilities, and to just hopefully get some donations. And so they would use old donated equipment. The story when you watched a film in the theater, it talks about the old Buddha, which he utilized a four-ton machine to help send a pipeline up to the top of the mountain carving where he would drill and start the blasting. You know, it was just 700 plus steps just to get up one way, and he'd have to walk up and down those steps. And one day it was like eight to nine times, and that Buddha kept giving out. So you're there isn't sunshine, and they're not just sitting around basking and glowing. I mean, they're working hard, they're breaking their backs, they're literally sacrificing their lives to try to bring this dream and this vision alive that he made a promise to Chief Henry Standing Bear and to try to make a difference in the world. And I think you can see the drive and you can hear it when I hear stories and I see recordings of both Korchak and Ruth, you can hear it and see it in their voices that they were intentional about dedicating their lives to a project and to something bigger than themselves. And what I learned today as a nonprofit executive, as I go to my best practice trainings, they talk about, you know, when it comes to workforce, you can, you know, a lot of times they say, Well, what can we do to build a better team? Well, you can have vacations, you can have massages, you can give people naps and so on and so forth. But those really don't do a whole lot for people to motivate them.

SPEAKER_00 32:24

Right.

SPEAKER_03 32:24

The best motivation today is when you serve other people. If the work that you're doing is serving a cause greater than yourselves, and you have a clear mission and a vision, and so that's what motivated Ruth and Korchak to know each and every day that they were waking up, sacrificing, doing these things that it was for the greater good of other people. And I think that's what motivated them, and that's what we're finding what's best practice today. So it aligns. And even today, the staff that we have here at the memorial, you experienced it, James, when you arrived here. The staff literally, I mean, they really enjoy being part of the project, no matter what departments. And we get that feedback from folks like you and tour groups and guests from all over the world. We get about 600,000 guests between Memorial Day weekend and Labor Day or into October. And then the shoulder season, there's not a lot of people that visit, but we need all that time to visit. But the nonetheless, those people talk about how much they really enjoy being here and how well they're treated by our staff because the staff really believe in the mission and they're serving the greater good. And I think, in essence, that's it's an honor and a privilege to be part of it.

SPEAKER_02 33:32

Well, and I think mission matters on the business side of things, a lot of times it can be tough because you don't have that same clearness. And I have to imagine, right? Korchalk and his wife probably looked at that mountain several times and said, it looks the same as it did last month. And you always, and I found this is true in life, in business, your personal mission, whatever that might be, you might waver. But I think what I see that I think makes it so powerful is that the vision is just so large. But I think as part of that though, you guys have been able to kind of set that out and how it's going to be done. Because you've got, you know, the education side of it, you've got you know the mountain carving side of it. And when he gets there, there's no funding, there's nothing there, and it's getting done in pieces and there's progress being made. One of the things I'd love to talk about, because I think this is also something people relate to, is I want to talk about the funding side of it. How much of it was government funded, Whitney?

SPEAKER_03 34:35

Chief Henry Standenbear and Korchok believed that as he heard the onboarding from Chief Henry Staningbear, he realized, oh my goodness, the government really did not follow through with their promises to the native people. And so he and Henry Standing Bear felt that they would operate this organization free of any government or state funding. So this would be a project that is by the people, for the people, in regards to the mission and vision. Korchak and Henry Stanningbear felt the government may not finish the mountain carving, they may not follow through with the educational efforts, that potentially, if they were got involved, they could transition the whole project. And Korchak and Henry Stanningbear felt for a lot of those reasons that it's just best to proceed without government or state funding. So to this day, we do not accept any government or state funding.

SPEAKER_02 35:28

To me, that was one of the most incredible things. I'm sure you can share how many millions of dollars have been offered and the opportunities, but you're 78 years into the project and to not have any government funding. One of the things that for me as a business owner kind of comes up is you hear all of these stories. Even Steve Jobs over at Apple loses control of Apple, they lose control of the business, they have investors to answer to, they have partners to answer to. To me, that was one of the most impressive parts of the project. And again, I think that that speaks to the mission and the vision because you've got your own self-funding, you've got your vision, you know, you've got the directions that you're heading. And I think even though there might have been some pivots along the way, I think from everything I've learned, what is most impressive to me is you guys are still true to that original vision. You're still building towards that original vision. What does it look like then as Korchak starts to get older? Obviously, I think there's a period of time where Korchok has passed and Ruth has taken over. What is that transitioning as they start to kind of become more established, the carving goes on, what does that look like as we start to work towards your leadership and when you get to come into the picture?

SPEAKER_03 36:48

I think uh our country today, because most Americans, no matter what race you are, including Native Americans, you know, we were not educated as to the treaties and the facts of our history. And in essence, a way to understand it, but it's never articulated in our public schools, which are mandatory, you know, to get an education or to be part of a public school or private school for that matter. But I think most Americans, and especially taxpayers, don't understand that the government made that commitment to the tribes after they overtook the land and negotiated these treaties. Basically, they invested the taxpayers' monies today to honor their treaties. They made a decision. So that's kind of part of being American, is you're really, you don't really understand it, but you're told to pay taxes, and the government allocates funds and it changes no matter what administration. I think, in essence, Chief Understanding Barry and Korchak felt that they did not want any part of that. They felt that this project should be kind of an independent project that is dedicated for a mission and a vision and a dream and to maintain that humanitarian part of our organization that it was best to proceed in that direction. And so when Korchak passed away, you know, there was a lot of questions. And so Ruth had decisions to make, and it took her a couple of years because Korchok wanted the horse's head to be completed first, or the mom carving. But Ruth actually gathered her team and analyzed it, made a decision to carve Crazy Horse's face first. And that made all the difference in the world because when people visit the Volksmarch or take a trip to the top and they get in front of Crazy Horse's face, it's hard to deny a vision when it's looking right back at you.

SPEAKER_02 38:35

Oh, and the scale of his face, and correct me if I'm wrong, all four faces from Mount Rushmore could fit within that one face. I mean, when we were up there, there's a picture with my family because one of the things we talked about when we were there is this is something where because of the way the arm is being carved, you might never be able to go up there again. So I made a donation and we went up as a family. And when I tell you that I could put my whole family in this guy's lips, right? I mean, literally, Crazy Horse's lips were the sides of my entire family standing there. I mean, it's incredible. And when you see it from the visitor center, it's incredible how the perspective changes. It just keeps getting bigger as you get there.

SPEAKER_03 39:20

Yeah, it does. So Crazy Horse's head is about 87 and a half feet tall, Mount Rushmore, those faces about 60 feet. But once again, the faces actually can fit in the side of Crazy Horse's head, all of the whole mountain carving. And so the finishing surface of our mountain carving is 30 times larger than that of Mount Rushmore. And if the same crew that carved Mount Rushmore with government funding that they had and the mechanisms, techniques that they had and they used to carve, which took them 14 years to carve that mountain, it would have taken them 404 years to carve Crazy Horse Memorial. So that kind of gives you a better understanding. And the horse's head, to give you a little bit of perspective, that we're working on now, that finish surface of the horse's head alone is larger than all the rest of the mountain carvings in the world combined, including what we've carved here. Just the horse's head, right?

SPEAKER_02 40:17

Not the we're talking about just that portion of the mountains.

SPEAKER_03 40:21

How I came along in terms of the transition in leadership, Ruth and Korchak and Henry Stanningbear knew that they created a foundation, Crazy Horse Memorial Foundation, and a board of directors to maintain the integrity of the funding and the project and to protect this as a so when people make donations, it's a tax-deductible contribution to our organization to help us. Once again, they are the ones that choose where the money goes, either mountain carving university, museum, or for operations. And so with that in mind, Korchak Ruth and Henry felt like this organization, in order for this humanitarian project to be completed, that the responsibility should go into a hands of a board of directors. And those that know nonprofits know that board of directors institutes governance, best practice, decisions to operate an organization. So four years ago, that board of directors took their responsibility and said it's time. And so that is when I was hired as the first non-Chokowski family member, the first Native American CEO to run this organization. So that signifies to me that really is a transparent way to help share with the world that this project was not government or there's there isn't any issues in regards to the fact that a young Dakota boy from a reservation who grew up in poverty, who did not know what my future looked like or why the world existed the way it did. But I made a dedication to getting an education. And then when I learned about our ancestors, it lit a fire under me to try hard to never give up, to get an education, and to work through and to try to change the cycles that my people have gone through in terms of the loss of family because of the reservations and the issues that we face on the reservations and to try to make a difference to represent our youth and our families. And so I worked hard in essence. So my journey to become CEO started around 2011.

SPEAKER_00 42:22

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 42:23

Run Crazy Horse is a marathon. It's a Boston qualifier. They approached Ruth and said, Can we start this race and call it Run Crazy Horse, this marathon, and start it in your parking lot and run into Hill City. And Ruth said, Well, I'll be happy to partner with you under one condition as long as you start that race with a drum beat instead of a gunshot. And I at the time I had a classmate from college from Blackfield State University that was working here, and she told Ruth about me and said, Hey, let's invite this guy. I know his name's Whitney Rencounter. He's a singer, carries on his traditional ways, and he was taught by his grandfather to sing. And let's invite him to come start this race for us. And so I got the call. And even to this day, I still start that race with my drum and with a song. And then as the race each year I would come back, and then they eventually started inviting my family and I to speak to the guests and the visitors to educate them about our people and our history and our culture. And then in 2020, I was offered the associate director at Praisey Horse Memorial University. I did that for a couple of years. And then when they conducted the search, when the board wanted to hire someone of their own to start a new era, I was already on staff and I went through the hiring process and I ended up being selected. And so it was an organic process. And I once again, the fact what I'm most appreciative of is that I can share with other Native children from the reservation that if you find a path and set some goals and work hard enough and believe in that and stay consistent with that, that eventually there can be some opportunities where you can be represented in the health field as a doctor, lawyer, leader, elected official, whatever your passion is. And mine just happened to lead me to this position here as the first non-Chaikoski family member, first native person from the reservation to be CEO. I think that inspires me to know where I've come from and the challenges that I've faced in my life and what I've learned and educated. My philosophy is that I think most people do not know about why we are where we are today in our world, but I've learned that there's no one bad group of people, one bad race, one bad home, one bad community, that there are people amongst all races and cultures, communities, homes that choose to make good choices and bad choices. So because of that, education has really changed my life. And when people actually take time to learn about the facts and the history, they tend to do better, have a better appreciation. And Henry Standingbird wanted a place to be able to provide that to people in the world as they visited the Black Hills.

SPEAKER_02 45:11

I think something that was really special for us, and I'm grasping for her name. I can't pull her name out of my memory, but there was a mom and her two daughters who was teaching the Native American hoop dancing. I remember I was sitting there with my son, my wife, my daughter, and she was telling the stories about how it was passed down to her and how they would tell stories about the earth, the animals. She had this incredible dance that starts as a small bird, and the bird is growing up, and there's this elaborate story, and you think, oh, it's just Going to be the world's biggest statue. But you guys are building so much more. And there's so much legacy in the people. And I couldn't agree with you more. I think that, especially in the world we live in today, it's very easy to try and say, oh, well, this is the bad guy. You get the good guy and you get the bad guy. And I think what you said couldn't be more true. There's people that make good decisions, there's people that make bad decisions. I remember the other day my children were watching a TV show. And in this TV show, they would go through historical figures and they'd talk about all the great things they did and all the bad or questionable things they did. And one of the big takeaways they were trying to teach these kids is you got to separate the idea from the person. No one person is 100% pure. No one person is 100% evil. Just because someone had a great idea doesn't mean, you know, separate the idea from the person. And I think one of the things that really struck me about what you guys are doing is you're not trying to teach, hey, this is what happened, and all it's this is our history objectively. One of the things that really reached out and grabbed me, and it's kind of ironic because outside you've got this beautiful view of the mountain carving, but in one of the buildings in the back, right behind what was Korshak's house, there's this building there that's got all of the flags. And I remember standing there and recognizing a lot of these flags because I've grown up in the Midwest, right? Oklahoma, Kansas, they're out there. And then I went into the basement and I got stuck in front of this image on the wall. It was a picture. I would guess it's probably sometime in the 40s. I'm sure you'll know when I bring it up. But it was all of these buffalo skulls. And I don't remember if the person was standing to the side or standing on top of it, but just the scale. I mean, we're talking buffalo skulls piled up as tall as a house. And all I could think to myself was you could feed right. I'm from Kansas City. We could have fed all of Kansas City with that. There's no what's the reasoning? Like you said, trying to kind of understand history, and I got stuck there. And so I think you guys are creating this cultural mecca. You're creating this cultural point in time and space that is going to allow you to bring that there. I can tell you, we planned to go once. My plan of my family was to be there one day. And I found myself in all of these different places within the museum in awe and learning. And I think for me, that was kind of one of the biggest things was I was brought in by the memorial. But what I think truly captured my attention was the story. And like you said, and we talked about earlier with motivating people, I think the lesson that I took back as a business owner and into my own life is this idea of the larger mission. There's in the video that you guys play, Korshak's older, and you can tell he's kind of reminiscing. It's very clear that he knows it's going to go beyond his own lifetime. And from what I understand, now you have his grandchildren working there, right? You have all of these people that have kind of brought it in. What do you see kind of as the future? I mean, obviously, work like this, even when the mountain carving is done, the education will never be done. There will always be growth. How do you measure as a leader those milestones? What does that look like to you as you're looking ahead? And if we were to bring you back on a couple years from now, what would be the milestones that you would say, this is where we're trying to go, this is what we've hit?

SPEAKER_03 49:28

Yeah, what we're working towards now is to really fulfill the vision and mission of what Chief Anderson Barry and Porchok I think, first of all, we're already fulfilling that by what you just explained in your experience. We want to present a place that objectively provides factual information to people and allow human beings to make their own determination how and how they feel about it, how they act on it. All we hope is because you know even if you spent a week here during your vacation or what have you, you still are not going to learn about the 570 plus federally recognized tribes and even more tribes that exist in our country, you're not going to be able to learn about all those tribes.

SPEAKER_02 50:11

Well, there's so much to take in.

SPEAKER_03 50:13

Absolutely. And the 300 plus tribal flags that we have in the cultural center that you were explaining, of those tribal members, citizens, and leaders that I visited here and said, Hey, I want my tribe, I want my flag to be represented there. So that people are investing and just being wanting to be part of it. I think for me, obviously, our goal is to finish the mountain carving and to fulfill Chief Henry Stanley Baron Korchak's and Ruth's commitment. But I think above that, and continuing with that, is to build a bigger. We have a university currently. It's a one-building university, it's a living and learning university. About between 550 to 600 students have come through our university from the reservations of tribes representing North America, and education and to help give them opportunities that I've had to be successful in college and to support them. And the museum is one is a what educates the public and inspires the public to want to learn more. As we expand our campus and bring to fruition the intentions and philosophy and understanding and help people to do better when they know better, I think we want to continue to expand our footprint in terms of a greater impact as more people around the world visit here and they have a better positive understanding of Native people.

SPEAKER_02 51:27

I think you guys are well on your way to that goal. And I think you're doing an incredible job. For someone that's been listening, for someone that's here, I think the first thing is get out there. But do you have anything that you could share for listeners if they're trying to build their legacy or they're thinking about their life's work, whether that be business or family, whatever they're doing, do you have something that you've learned that you could share that helps you when you think about legacy because you deal with it on such a grand scale every day?

SPEAKER_03 52:00

In our culture, we talk about Wolakwota, which is the ultimate highest virtue of being human being. Okay. Wolakvota encompasses all the values and virtues of respect, honesty, wisdom that we strive to have and to gain in our lives of generosity, compassion, all of the high-level values and virtues. But for me, I take a philosophy out of Bruce Lee, which was Bruce Lee says, Be like water. Water will find a way to make it to its destination, will continue going despite all the roadblocks and all the mountains and the issues that you face in your life. Like for me, growing up in poverty, someone asked me the other day, Well, did you ever think you'd ever be in this position of such a huge organization? And you know, as a young native on a reservation, and I was like, you know, they asked me what helped you, what started that for you. Well, I said for me, it was my mom could not provide meals for us every meal. That times we just ate what we had available in the cupboard and just the struggle of not knowing what we were gonna have, getting our vehicle repo's. And I said, for me, it was that at that time I have to do something. I can't just rely on my mom. So I made a goal to become a doctor, didn't know how I was gonna do it, never had any doctors in our family or anything, but I knew doctors made a lot of money and they helped people. Yeah, so let me try to do that. I did not become a doctor, but I did get my honorary doctorate degree awarded from Black Hill State University. Congratulations. So maybe that's how I achieved my goal, but I feel like I have an opportunity to help educate a lot of people, and I think education has helped me. So that would be my advice to other people is to never give up and to find your set your goals and follow them and stay true to that and pull from what you find is passionate to use.

SPEAKER_02 53:49

I want to thank you so much for coming on. I think at some point, because I know that in your world you guys deal in years, we will have to have you back on in a year or so to talk about the progress. And for all our listeners out there, thank you for joining us on the Ground Transportation Podcast. We'll see you again on the next episode.

SPEAKER_01 54:06

Thank you for listening to the Ground Transportation Podcast. If you enjoyed this episode, please remember to subscribe to the show on Apple, Spotify, YouTube, or wherever you get your podcasts. For more information about PAX Training and to contact James, go to PAXTraining.com. And for more information about driving transactions and to contact Ken, go to driving transactions.com. We'll see you next time on the Ground Transportation Podcast.